Is This The Last Straw?

He has done it now. That seems to be the prevailing perception in many political circles. When the Bush Administration gave its blessing to a deal that would provide an Arab owned company control over 6 major US ports, it seems that he may have pushed some of his staunchest supporters beyond their limit in terms of party solidarity. Members from both sides of the political spectrum have expressed concerns over the deal, including Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee and House Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois. In an ironic twist, one of Bush's sole supporters is former President Jimmy Carter. Bush insists that barring an Arab country from doing business in the United States flies in the face of the message of Democracy and free trade he is trying so hard to promote. Time Opinion Leaders, we are all familiar with the story, but do you think President Bush may have pushed the political envelope a bit too far this time? Everyone has an opinion, and we want to hear yours........................

MORE...

Really KLC people - you should have been reading here on your own blog for the past two days.

Bush inherited the P&O contracts from the previous administration.

Did Dubai need our permission to purchase a British corporation? Of course not. Could this impact theP&O contracts? Maybe.

We have around 360 ports and it turns out that a good percentage of them are on foreign management contracts with CHINA, TAIWAN, SINGAPORE, DENMARK etc etc etc. 50% of our eastern ports are foreign managed and nearly 100% of the western ports.

Information given the other day in a Yahoo news report from Associated Press indicates this happened in 2000. Do we want to buy out the other 25 years on these 30 year deals? Maybe.

The company in Dubai has hired Bob Dole to represent them.

Could there be some economic backlash for cancelling? Boeing just signed a $10 BILLION purchase order with Dubai. They could cancel it and throw a lot of people out of work.

"Bush insists that barring an Arab country from doing business in the United States flies in the face of the message of Democracy.."

Well only because nobody objected to the past 5+ years of British control! nor Chinese....nor Danish......

President Bush has a diplomatic obligation to honor contracts he inherited.

Do the American people want foreign management of the ports? I DO NOT THINK SO! And despite all the flap over the Emirates, I think we will move in the direction of eliminating all foreign involvement.

Will we pay an immense price for this? No doubt but we may want to seriously weight this against our sense of security.

No, the new owners are not in charge of security. That won't change.

Who manages the ports may be the least of our concerns:

"Shallow, congested, and technologically lagging, U.S. seaports need a major overhaul to preserve U.S. strength in international trade.

U.S. seaports are showing signs of neglect, a disturbing prospect as the nation competes in an increasingly dynamic global economy. Many aspects of port infrastructure and management are relics from mid-century. And while ports throughout Europe and Asia are becoming more modern and productive, many U.S. ports will soon become obsolete in the absence of significant upgrading and investment. Since the movement of freight by sea is expected to triple by the year 2020, this is indeed a troubling scenario."

we are apparently a couple of generations behind on the new ships' requirement specs. The newest transports can't even get into our shallow, narrow harbors and are better suited to transporting thru places like Rotterdam.

so while the Dems and Repubs are throwing stones on this maybe somebody better look to the more serious issues in an emerging trade crisis.

I don't know if it's "the last straw", but clearly many Americans of all political stripes are stunned to find that major port operations are 1.) contracted out to foreign entities; and 2.) available for bid to a state-owned Arabian nation.

"nation" above should be "company".

BTW congrats WldFlwr for surpassing DrDarryl with the most toatl comments on this blog. I guessed about a month or so ago you would do so right around Valentine's :) I think I was close in my estimate!

well geesh mtman, I wasn't counting. Well anyway congratulations on your projection!

Anybody been able to find a list of the nations that manage our 360 ports?

Chinese was bad enough. I am waiting for Germany, France and Russia.

Have already contacted my congressman about NO FORGEIGN MANAGEMENT OF OUR PORTS. He will get a phonecall in Washington if those three are involved!

only I could spell foreign when I sent the email....

But DrDarryl joined 11 months earlier. Wild, you really do need to get a life! :)-

WldFlwr: Good comments. You seem to know a good deal about this subject or have done quite a bit of research.

swimm Had a life. It was very good.:)

BOBBYGEE not having a life affords me time to do the research.

"There's a blessing in everything", said the Rabbi.

The deal regards port management only. That applies to scheduling of port services, policing, resolving disputes, etc. Not the individual operators at the ports nor the shipping companies nor the ownership of any property are directly involved.

Also, please remember what is happening. An UAE company is purchasing P&O, the company that has the current contract for port management. What is being approved is the capability of the company to meet the provisions of the contract, in regards to operations and security. There is an existing process for doing this, and it is the responsibility of the EXECUTIVE branch. The congress is simply trying to muscle in for political purposes.

I would EXPECT the President to veto anything the congress does, as this is an Executive Powers issue. Since the contract is already in force, unless there some specific language in the contract, the US is limited to the vetting procedure. If there is no proof of a security threat, the US would be legally accountable for breaking the contract. Not a precedent to be taken lightly.

Also, the UAE has been a valuable source of intelligence on the war on terror, not mention a staging point for the mobilization prior to the war. There will be significant ramifications if the US stops the deal.

As the facts about this deal become more clear, let's look at some of the details.

From today's AP wire comes this headline: "Arab Company, White House Had Secret Deal" ( http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PORTS_SECURITY?SITE=NVLAS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&SECTION=HOME )


Reading the first couple of paragraphs, we find out the following:

" Under a secretive agreement with the Bush administration, a company in the United Arab Emirates promised to cooperate with U.S. investigations as a condition of its takeover of operations at six major American ports, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

The U.S. government chose not to impose other, routine restrictions.

In approving the $6.8 billion purchase, the administration chose not to require state-owned Dubai Ports World to keep copies of its business records on U.S. soil, where they would be subject to orders by American courts. It also did not require the company to designate an American citizen to accommodate requests by the government.

Outside legal experts said such obligations are routinely attached to U.S. approvals of foreign sales in other industries."

Not only was this deal done in a "secretive" manner, but it explicitly precludes mandating the type of paperwork required for scrutiny by American courts and/or law enforcement agencies. In other words, the deal makes certain that no paper trail will be available should something needing inpection occurs.

Think about that for a minute.

Not only was a deal made with an Arabian country's government owned company to operate several of our key ports, but this deal included clauses to make sure that in the event of a problem of any sort our government and law enforcement officials would not be privy to subpoenaing any information.

Why would an Administration engaged in a "war on terrorism" primarily against Muslim radicals agree to these types of terms with a foreign nation who just so happened to be the "homeland" of some of the 9-11 hijackers?

In the above post we see one of the people who posted many of the extreme anti-Muslim viewpoints we have seen on this blog all of a sudden defend the deal with the Dubai state run company, as if it is a "patriotic" duty to back up any and all decisions and deals made by the Executive Branch. I've seen a couple of polls concerning this issue, and the vast majority of Americans are against this deal. Yes, there will be "significant ramifications" regarding this deal. Only this time, they will haunt the Bush Administration as this appears to be another one of the many errors in judgement it has made in regards to Middle East policy.

Really unpoor? What happened to "If Carter supports it, it must be a really bad idea", that you and link were spouting the other day?

Yes, UAE has done the United States some favors in the war on terror. Other favors -- assisting in the tracking and seizing of terrorist assets, for example.......not so much. Tenet's testimony about the pre-9/11 ties between bin Laden, himself, and members of the UAE royal families are alarming and -- even if those ties were only pre-9/11, even if those ties were only with a specific and narrow group within the royalty of the country -- simply not dismissible.

Quite frankly, a nation that has played both sides of the terrorism fence, even if they have decided to play "on our team" since 9/11, doesn't get to play the we're-all-on-the-same-team sympathy card.

Even, yes, among bleeding-heart liberals.

Look at the words you just used in your own posts that describe their responsibilities and duties: "policing", "operations and security" . OK, so maybe the national security implications may not be huge.....but they are there. Supposedly we are a nation "at war". There are not too many countries worthy of the trust required to manage these sensitive operations at this time. The UAE is certainly not on the short list!

GW Bush is a corporatist to the bitter end. When investigated, I'm sure this trail will lead us to the $$$$ for one one his cronies in some way, shape or form. He is "out to lunch" on this one. Even most of his supporters are scratching their heads over this.

Purple...and don't forget McCain supports it too... that is worrisome.

I am not pleased with any foreign presence in our ports. This is just too sensitive. Although I believe it's been common here in U.S. Ports for many years. Pre 911 it wasn't controversial, but post 911 it's a very different matter.

After recently reading Thomas Friedman's 'The World is Flat', I can't help but wonder if this port thing is just a a manifestation of the world being flattened by all the forces Friedman so clearly describes. It seems there is little left that is not caught in the web of globalization. Whether we like it or not, it appears we have been swept up into and along by forces that we are just now recognizing There's very little left in the business and financial world that is not conglomerated. I would bet if someone were to analyze other icons and sacred cows,,we would discover there are many more Internecine manipulations mixing national and business interests creating conflicts, real or perceived.

My opinion on the port issue is still open and 'floating'. I've heard and read good arguments pro and con. At this point there seems to be much more emotion overriding clear thinking

1. You mean to tell me that there is not an Amercian company capable of doing the work????

2. Bush is outsourcing jobs and money. Some friend of Bush must be getting rich at the expense of taxpayers.

No American company was obviously willing to pay the price to run the ports.
Free market you know, the highest bidder normally buy.

Cheney was falling down drunk when he shot his "friend" and everybody knows it. He is a secretive, evil little toadstool! How dumb does he think the American People are?

He waited an unnecessary long time to report it (where were his Secret Service agents?) Were they drunk too?

I bet if a Democrat shot someone (drunk or sober), the Texas Republicans would've been hopping around like 'raped apes' (a Texas expression) wondering what was going on, demanding they be put in jail until a mandatory trial was announced, etc.

There are double standards when it comes to Republicans and "Others". This has to stop. And what happens if Cheney's "friend" dies? The doctor that treated him said he was "lucky to be alive!" Cheney's "crowd" (and that lying, arrogant Scott McClellan) said the wounds were only "superficial". I bet the doctors will say the shooting had nothing to do with it!

IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY NOW!

The Last Straw??? In My mind that Happened when that Gang Invaded Iraq. The Blowing up of the 2000+ yr old Mosque is Setting off the Fire Storm that was Inevitable in a Country where the Major Religion has Factions that Cannot seem to join together to form a Democrat Government. This Administration has lost control of its own party members It is now a Lame Duck!!!!!

I think the last straw should have been many straws ago. This administration has belittled us in the eyes of the world, made the world a far more dangerous place in the name of security, changed the meaning of democracy to mean anywhere that has an election of any kind, confused our allies with those who mean us harm and dumbed down America. How to keep America safe is not by outsourcing our security to a questionable ally.

The part I can't understand is how the Liberals scream it is immoral to profile for airport security but the same moon bats demand we can profile whole companies? Sounds somewhat bigoted to me. (And they our closest allies on terror front too)

Liberals do not appear very consistent on this. But I guess their policies mostly depend upon the latest poll.

Mntman... AP has corrected the errors in thier story... try reading the WSJ and compare.

"Cheney was falling down drunk when he shot his "friend" and everybody knows it. "
Metaustin...

You know this for a fact?

I think you are making assumptions not in fact. First of all I am not a liberal, I am a moderate. Second of all when did liberal become a dirty word? Thirdly, I am all for profiling of every kind. It has worked for decades in Israel and could work for us here too.

Swoflea, just make another tin foil hat for the idiot.

Hillary, Kerry, Dean all cried out against profiling to keep us safe on airplanes. That is why we have the long lines at airports. Liberals.

The Left's Secret Pact
Opinion Editorial by Vasko Kohlmayer - Feb 23, 2006

The War on Terror has brought on many complex problems and challenges. Perhaps none is more critical than the conduct of the political Left which is apparently set on sabotaging our efforts.

Unable to come up with a logical explanation, political observers either throw up their hands in bewilderment or ascribe the Left’s posture to some irrational nihilistic impulse. But such conclusions are neither satisfactory nor correct.

The Left’s sabotage of this war is a deliberate attempt to give relief to the other side. This is because their corresponding views on capitalism and the West make Islamic radicals and the Left natural allies.

The Left seeks to weaken us from within in order to help those whose shared worldview binds them in a common pact. Once we understand the nature of this stealth partnership, the reasons behind the Left’s often seemingly inexplicable actions will become alarmingly apparent.

http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/060223-kohlmayer-leftspact.php

Vasko Kohlmayer wrote:
The depth and extent of the Left’s deceit will become clear once it is understood how their shared views on our society make them a stealth ally of Islamic radicals. The treachery must be exposed, because this war on terror — hard and protracted as it promises to be — cannot be won with a fifth column in our midst.

There ya go.

This whole sad incident serves to illustrate the disconnect that exists between those inside the beltway in Washington D.C. and the rest of the country. No one, it seems, had the good sense that the Good Lord gave a sack of beans. The public response to this bit of drooling idiocy is precisely what it should be and what the government officials involved should have anticipated. In the midst of a war with much of the muslim world, we simply cannot afford this kind of nonsense.

Vasco has it right, link.

Wldflwr: Congratulations on becoming the champion blogger! Had lunch with TKearns yesterday. A good time was had by all.

Love2search: Liberal became a dirty word when liberals gave up being the loyal opposition and became enemies of the United States and freedom around the globe.

I find it very ironic that the President was not informed of this decision before it was made.

Then in almost the same breath he declares that he will veto any Congressional proposal that attempts to stop this from taking place.

If he was so uninformed of what happened, before declaring a veto, perhaps he should request some type of investigation to determine if it is feasible to maintain the agreement.

On the other hand, does kickback(s) ring a bell?

Indeed, BigDog. President Bush seems all too willing to sell out the United States if doing so will enrich his friends. That is a great disappointment and a disgrace.

COLORME "He is "out to lunch" on this one. Even most of his supporters are scratching their heads over this."

from the reports I have seen indeed he was out to lunch and he has joined us in scratching heads over this. And won't the hearings be interesting???

SWO "Although I believe it's been common here in U.S." According to AP reports the contracts were signed in 2000. And I see my time to research is offset by my math skills Of the 360 ports only 1/3 are foreign managed so that's 120 ports. That's 120 too many!

SOERRIES, Bush is not outsourcing. He is only the president. The NAFTA agreement from the previous adminstration opened the floodgates!

Can't American companies do the work? American union wages are driving outsourcing. The new Chinese car being released in this country this year costs under $9,000 because a Chinese auto worker earns $3.50 an hour.

You want to talk getting rich on outsourcing? Heinz Corporation does 60% of their business overseas - their $8 BILLION annual business.

If you think the present adminsitration is the source of the problems then you are in for a huge shock when the Democrats win the elections in 2008!

FAKE "Free market you know, the highest bidder normally buy."

In all things federal government the lowest bidder gets the contract.

METAUSTIN there is no possibility the Secret Service would have let the Vice President handle any firearm while inebriated.

And we are all glad to know you don't have a heart condition! and we hope you remain healthy.

The incident was reported as all gunshot incidents are - by the hospital emergency room staff to the local authorities when the victim arrived.

Since he didn't shoot an ambassador or head of state it wasn't a political event.

"I bet the doctors will say the shooting had nothing to do with it!"

The man is 78 years old. He has exceeded his reasonable life expectancy. He could die of anything at all. He had a heart attack in the hospital. So don't hold our breath for him to die of complications.

IMPEACH? you need to do some studying up and see what the grounds for impeachment are.

Have you met Miss McKenzie?

TIMMY "In My mind that Happened when that Gang Invaded Iraq."

Can you name the 24 nations of the coalition?

Yes, the blowing up of a holy shrine of any religion could be a prelude to war in any nation. They have a Democratic government, they also have a well funded insurgency dedicated to stopping them.

Could a civil war break out? Know anything about 1861-1865 in the U.S.?

Timmy you need to get out that Civics book again and look up "lame duck". The president and his entire administration are indeed on the way out - because this is their second term. Doesn't matter what they do or do not do, they will all be leaving us.

LOVE "This administration has belittled us in the eyes of the world"

Not half as much as our hanging out "No Arabs Allowed" signs on our ports while allowing the Chinese contracts.

"dumbed down America"

REALLY? America has dumbed down itself. Watched Jay Walking lately? It's a particular hoot on graduation day at Stanford!

"How to keep America safe is not by outsourcing our security to a questionable ally."

The SECURITY has NOT been outsourced, not even under the British.

Remember a guy named Osama bin Laden? He planned 9-11 for at least 5 years before it happened in 2001. George Bush took office in January of 2001. Bush inherited the situation. He didn't cause.


,

LINK it gets sillier! Suddenly President George Bush, not one of our most noted leftist liberals, is taking a strong diplomatic stand AGAINST PROFILNG while the leftwing leadership is promoting it!

LOVE "I am all for profiling of every kind"

SO AM I!. We are wasting time and resources searching grandmothers in airports. And U.S. Senators of note.

Liberal is a dirty word on this blog. So is Conservative. Doesn't matter how Centrist you are "they" will pin one label or another on you.

As for profiling against nations - it's okay only if we do it everyone! NO FOREIGN MANAGEMENT OF OUR PORTS. Anything less goes beyond profiling right back into the blind prejudice we fought so hard to set aside in the 60s.

Here we go again!

Unfortunately, I do (for this time), understand Bush's point of view. We must have (US) improved relations with the Muslin world. This certainly would help. But what assurances do we have that Dubai has the security the US requires? Particularly future employees that might infiltrate their company.

Wild,
I'm afraid you're mistaken that in all things federal government, the lowest bidder gets the contract. It used to be that way, but is no longer. If the higher bidder deserves the contract, it can easily be justified. And I would also doubt that Halliburton was always the lowest bidder.

And I have to comment on your previous post:
"swimm Had a life. It was very good.:)"

What do you mean, you HAD a life? Are you dead? You're not allowed to have one any more?

While I do not have all the facts concerning this latest issue, I believe that the "last straw" was committed a long time ago by the Bush administration. There are so many indisputable facts that provide evidence of policies that have had/will have adverse impact on this country that I continually find it unbelievable that more people are not concerned about the direction this country has been taking. While this is a simplistic example perhaps, the amount of the deficit and our national debt are 2 figures that should make Americans sit up and immediately take notice. There is ample evidence that these figures have been directly impacted by this administration, not inherited from the previous administration (altho there is always some continuing "fallout"). In the case of the port issue, there have been continuning reports about the lack of security measures and the management of these ports and the huge vulnerability this situation respresents. As usual, the question is how long before we take appropriate action? Secondly, I am not surprised, but once again frustrated and disgusted to find out that Pres. Bush did not know about this deal until late in its making or after it was virtually a "done deal." By the way, I agree with BonBon that we need to improve relations with the Muslim world, but it seems to me there are other areas in which we could pursue such initiatives that would gain us more and perhaps pose less risk. The port issue is an extremely large and complex issue that certainly requires greater exposition and discussion.

As they always say, "follow the money".

"President George W. Bush’s appointed U.S. Secretary of the Treasury John Snow has a direct link to Dubai Ports World, the state-owned company in the United Arab Emirates poised to take over shipping operations at six major U.S. seaports in early March."

here's the rest of the article:
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover022206.htm

Snow was chairman and chief executive officer of CSX Corporation when nominated by Bush to serve as U.S. Secretary of the Treasury on December 9, 2002.

On December 8, 2004 Dubai Ports International (Dubai Ports) purchased CSX for US$1.15-billion. The transaction, underwritten by Deutsche Bank, was expected to be completed in the first quarter of 2005.

The last straw? To the Bush administration that's like "crying wolf".
Regardless of what side of the issue you are on, it's time that we all united just like we did after 9/11. Regardless of which administration is responsible for this or who inherited this mess, things are different...9/11 changed that. It's time to rethink Port Security and not allow foreigners to protect our country.
You cannot ignore the fact that the 2 of the killers that hit the twin towers were from the UAE or that the money is filtered thru the UAE.
I don't buy the Bush didn't know. If so, what else will he deny knowing? He seems to call all the shots, well except for Cheney shooting Harry (I think).

I do think it's time to impeach Bush since he appears to want to hand over security to a group of people that condone and support terrorism.

SWIMM "afraid you're mistaken that in all things federal government, the lowest bidder gets the contract. It used to be that way, but is no longer. If the higher bidder deserves the contract, it can easily be justified."

WELL THIS IS CERTAINLY GOOD TO KNOW! One would hope this is true particularly in the medical field.

There are, however, still some serious suspicions about those contracts for body armor etc.

And it would be nice to get new uniforms that don't have sleeves and collars so crooked you can't get the patches on the way they belong!

Then there are those new construction projects, those wonderful facilities in the multimillion $ category with roofs that leak, and firewalls that drop without notice and without a fire.

"What do you mean, you HAD a life? Are you dead?"

You know how to tell? If it still hurts you aren't dead.

"You're not allowed to have one any more?"

apparently not. In retrospect, the ONLY regret is putting off several fun things "till the kids are grown". Unfortunate choice. Can't recommend it.

CORRY the contracts with the British P&O were signed before Bush took office. 1/3 of our 360 ports have foreign management including Chinese.

Port security is not conducted by these foreign management companies from all I have read. Our government provides the security.

National debt always spirals during wars.

Take appropriate action? Well that would depend on what appropriate action turns out to be. I would like to see all the ports under our management. Do we have to buy back these 30 year contracts???? Do they each have an "out clause"? A buyout could be a spendy proposition.

There are two thoughts on Bush - some people have claimed all along he is a dictator micromanaging the world. Others claim he is clueless and lead around by Rove. GUESS WE WILL FIND OUT IN THE HEARINGS!

We can't improve muslim relations by hanging out "NO ARABS ALLOWED" and "ALL OTHER FOREIGNORS WELCOME" signs.

"The port issue is an extremely large and complex issue that certainly requires greater exposition and discussion."

ABSOLUTELY !!!!

"The transaction, underwritten by Deutsche Bank, was expected to be completed in the first quarter of 2005."

for those who don't know - Deutsche Bank was located in TOWER #5 of the World Trade Center.

"President George W. Bush’s appointed U.S. Secretary of the Treasury John Snow has a direct link to Dubai Ports World, the state-owned company in the United Arab Emirates poised to take over shipping operations at six major U.S. seaports in early March."


SWIM this certainly explains how certain details would have been switched around in the negotiations.

It doesn't mean that George Bush is going to profit in any way - not that you said as much but someone will.

"It's time to rethink Port Security and not allow foreigners to protect our country."

AMEN!!!! airrman

"You cannot ignore the fact that the 2 of the killers that hit the twin towers were from the UAE or that the money is filtered thru the UAE."

Yes we can! unless anyone can prove the government of Dubai knew anything about this at all. Banks process numbers. They don't have to know who what why when or where.

NOBODY IS HANDING OVER SECURITY OF THE PORTS TO ANYONE!

You can't impeach a president if he hasn't commited an impeachable offense. Being offensive isn't one.

If this president thinks that he can act without intervention of the congress to have others approve of "deals" to sell our security up the river while he dallies in his PR campaigns, he should be given a lesson even he might be able to learn someday... and that lesson is this: WE HIRED, and WE CAN FIRE... it is time to fire these people, install competent leadership... and send them all quail hunting with one another.

"You can't impeach a president if he hasn't commited an impeachable offense. Being offensive isn't one. "

Last I remember, Clinton was impeached for much less, in my opinion.

Bush has mishandled Katrina, Homeland Security and authorized illegal wiretaps.
I also remember Nixon resigned because of wiretaps - well, before he could be impeached. Now to sell the ports to the same country who hit our twin towers?

Those banks (UAE) that process numbers are probably have Bin Laden's money too, no questions asked, huh?

On 9/11, the US world came to a stop - no airlines, no crossing borders by plane, train or automobiles or a foot. That was the first time in my life I had ever seen such thing happen. It's time to take such drastic action and stop doing business with those who condone or support those terrorists.

"If this president thinks that he can act without intervention of the congress"

He has never indicated this. What he did say is if they vote to stop this deal he will veto it. So what? The Senate can override a veto.

This president does not dallie in PR campaigns. First of all - this is his second term and he has no reason to. He's nearly out of this. Secondly, if he was going to play Popular Mr. President on this he would go with the popular stance which he has not. He has taken the obligatory diplomatic leadership role instead.

Well in this country "fire them" means wait until November 2006 and oust every Congressman and Senator running for re-election.

Welcome to all the new names on the blog tonight. We needed some new blood. The rest of us are so predictable you can practically figure out what they're going to post just by seeing the name (myself included).

I did not mean to imply that Bush was going to profit from the ports deal; rather that he puts people in charge of things that are foxes guarding chicken coops and that are rewards for something else, like "heck of a job" Brownie in charge of something he knows nothing about.

airrman Clinton was impeached for perjury. That is a crime.

Bush didn't mishandle a hurricane. The system failed.

Homeland Security mismanaged Katrina!

"Illegal wiretapping" has yet to be determined.

Nixon was NOT in trouble for wire-tapping at all. Nixon was in on a burglary and that is a crime.

His recordings were not wiretappings. He ran a recording system in the Oval Office. He wasn't the first president to do this, he was the first to get caught.

NOBODY IS SELLING THE PORTS!

There is no possibility bin Laden keeps his money in any nation where he is not allowed to set foot. His will be in the Cayman Islands. All the serious illegal money is in the Caymans.

"It's time to take such drastic action and stop doing business with those who condone or support those terrorists."

Dubai and the United Arab Emirates have never condoned or supported the terrorists. They have, rather, been the targets and victims of the terrorists. These nations are our allies.
They have been extremely helpful to the 'war on terror'. We have troops in all of them.

by the way, SWIM THANKS FOR THE POST ON John Snow! I have been wondering all day who in the Cabinet was involved in the approval process who would have had any connections. Who would have been at a level to make "adjustments" to the usual arrangements. And who would have felt so confident in the president's support that he would proceed on his own?

I completely agree with the foxes in the chicken house! Looks today as though the chicken house is white.

But you have to agree Brownie really did do 'one heck of a job' - it's just in the negative connotation. Actually Brownie had a great track record the year before in Florida where he had a state that knew what the heck it was doing in a hurricane crisis!

but I do think that if a hurricane is an 'Act of God' which all the insurance companies are going to decree, we might want to be a bit careful in the accusations about how badly the administration or anyone else managed God.

Sorry, fellas... but if this "un-precedented" president hasn't committed SEVERAL impeachable offenses, I'll hunt with Cheney!!! He slept on the job when the August 2001 memo referencing Al Quada posed to strike US came across his desk... he sat in that classroom, as our countrymen died on 911, he's slanted intelligence to invade a non-hostile country, he's had CIA agents OUTED, he's been out of the loop so many times where a president is OBLIGATED to be IN the loop that people have died as a result... he should be removed on incompetence alone... and yet he continues to act as if he is a dictator and not an elected official... (Hmmmm elected? OHIO?) If Bush hasn't LIED numerous times about IMPORTANT THINGS that have cost THOUSANDS of LIVES and BILLIONS of DOLLARS, (compared to Clinton's covering up his sexual appetites), again, let's all go hunt with Cheney... not that you'll hear anything about our "accidental injuries" for days anyway!!!

I think a bigger question that I have yet to see answered is why we allow foreign companies or countries to have ANY control over any port of entry in the U.S.?

Who thought turning over our ports to other countries was a good idea?

Oh yeah, the same people that turned our national security over to a company based in an offshore island in order to avoid taxes.


Hmmmm who could that be?

OH Yeah, Dumbya and his "profit and party over country" wrecking crew.

Oh yeah, Impeached means INDICTED. After a TRIAL, Clinton was ACQUITTED!

Hmmm. I guess that means he committed no crime! The jury said so! Wonder why that was?

And of course our dipstick Preznint thinks he "don' need no steeking congress fo nottin!"

Welcome to the Imperial Presidency. Wonder what the Moron In Chief will do if his veto is overridden?

Have Cheney go shoot everyone?

Lay down on the floor and kick his feet and hold his breath until he turns blue?

Or just ignore the override and tell UAE the deal is done?

The most inept, corrupt, lying, thieving, and idiotic presidency in modern history if not all the history of theU.S.

WORST PRESIDENT EVER!

Someday Osama will emerge as an elder Muslim statesman, move to some Arab nation, join the local country golf club, and claim that he had no hands on involvement in 911. Sweeden will award him the Nobel peace prize, and he will lecture at Universities. As befitting his folk hero status he will have enormous credibility. Oprah will make his latest book a best seller.

To Wldflwr... Please note: UAE is one of three governments who recognized the TALIBAN as government in Afghanistan... UAE has been a passthrough for nuclear fuels sent to IRAN, NORTH KOREA, and LIBYA... is this the same UAE you'd like regulating shipments through six of our biggest and most important gateways? If so, WHY? OH, and while we're on the subject... if this is how we show willingness to work with other Arab nations, why can't we do it in some other, less sensitive way FIRST? COuld it be because those other prospective avenues have no big paydays in them for the fascists at the top?

WldFlwr - why do you feel a compunction to protect George W. Bush and the actions of his administration? Hasn't he sent several of your loved ones to a war in a nation that now is facing a civil war? A nation in which we had no business being in in the first place? Will you please look deeper into what underlies W's rise to his current position in the first place?

Several new names on this blog today - welcome all, whatever your political stripe. Seems like a few of you see reality a bit more like the current minority on this blog, and not like some of the extremist right-wingers who one day will be bashing ALL Muslims and then the next will sing praises to the banking interests in Dubai (where Michael Jackson now resides and dresses in public in a burka). Don't let the insults get to you - freedom of speech is still (last time I looked) a constitutional guarantee and something most TIME magazine readers actually enjoy. Lately, from the words of some, it almost appears as if once you think through the issues and disagree with the way this nation is CURRENTLY being led, you are somehow lees than American. The words I saw posted today sound much more like what I hear on the "American street" and less like what some of us have been force fed from extremists lately. Post away! This blog needs new voices...

Another aside... anyone watching this president travel from smile stop to PR stop (with totally screened audiences!) knows that the man hasn't a clue... he's HOWDY DOODY... a puppet...

Buzzramjet - good to see you again! Actaully, I've already asked that question. Maybe I'm naive (as I do believe more than 75% of the American population is) but as I stated early in this thread, never in my wildest nightmares did I imagine that operation of major American ports was controlled by foreigners. I don't care if they are British, Canadian, Chinese, or Arab - OUR PORTS ARE OURS ALONE. If this is waht free-trade agreements are all about - then I am unequivocably against them.

j88keys..."if this "un-precedented" president hasn't committed SEVERAL impeachable offenses..."

Okay, so since you feel this way I trust you have contacted your federal representatives and demanded that they begin impeachment proceedings at once.

"he sat in that classroom, as our countrymen died on 911"

He sat in that classroom and finished a children's picture book for the 2nd graders. It isn't as though he could have done one single thing in those 5 minutes it took. To do anything else would have scared the kids and there was no cause whatsoever to do that!

How would slamming the book shut and rising and racing out have saved even one life???

The "slant" was from "intelligence" confirmed by Russia, Germany, France and England.

"non-hostile" country - that was giving the political finger to the United Nations for 12 years and telling them where to stick their sanctions while he stole the oil for food money instead of feeding his people. And don't forget the $25,000 to any family that could produce a suicide bomber who would slaughter innocent people. Not hostile except to the 300,000 Shiites he slaughtered and dumped into unmarked graves and don't forget the northern villages.

CIA agents? You mean Ms. Plame....nobody has determined who did it. The reporter knows and won't tell.

I don't believe we have any Constitutional direction on impeachment for incompetence. 5p1der could tell us!
Incompetence is a SUBJECTIVE CALL.
Impeachments work better with OBJECTIVE CRITERIA.

"If Bush hasn't LIED numerous times..."

Well the burden of proof is on you, or rather on your congressman and senator. Prove it and go for the impeachment.

If you get shot while hunting there won't be any reason whatsoever we should hear about it at all unless you are an ambassador or head of state.

Yes, Wldflwr, I have written my congresswoman and both senators on numerous occasions to join with John Conyers on his impeachment resolution.

Any "Commander in Chief" would have excused himself to tend to his responsibilities on that beautiful September morning... the children would have understood... PARTICULARLY when history is written about this date...

The SLANT is proven in the DOWNING STREET MEMO... or even better, in discussions to go to war in Iraq PRE-911... actually in February 2001!!!

The murder of all of those innocent Iraqis by Saddam took place... during RONALD REAGAN'S presidency... AND... directly after Bush 41 failed to protect those "insurgents" he tried to use to overthrow Saddam after he was warned NOT TO INVADE IRAQ.... because it would DESTABILIZE the REGION!!! (That was COLIN POWELL'S 1991 ASSESSMENT... and HE WAS RIGHT!!!)

PLAME OUTED??? You KNOW that LIBBY ADMITTED he was given directives to do it BY HIS SUPERIORS... LIBBY'S WORDS!!!

Impeachment is supposed to be for "HIGH CRIMES and MISDEMEANORS"... your boy has perpetrated BOTH... REPEATEDLY!!!

OK then... let's see... we went to war because Iraq had WMD... Noooo we went to war because Saddam killed his own people... Noooo we went to war to spread FREEDOM... which one was the truth? If ONE WAS TRUE, THE OTHER TWO WERE LIES... pick the one you like best...

Nope... you won't hear of the thousands that died in the collateral murdering of Iraqis either... tell me... have we equalled Saddam's numbers yet? We'll probably never know...

BUZZ good to see you back!

"Hmmmm who could that be?"

These contracts were done deals in 2000 according to AP reports. So yeah, which administration thought this was a good idea?

"OH Yeah, Dumbya"

well Dumbya took over the office in January 2001.

I don't think ANYBODY thinks foreign management is a good idea! So yeah, who thought so in 2000?

Clinton was guilty enough he lost his license to practice law. Impeachment is not the same as indictment and conviction.

"The most inept, corrupt, lying, thieving, and idiotic presidency in "

well now I have always thought if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. So BUZZ - you 35 years old? born in the USA? RUN FOR PRESIDENT AND SHOW US HOW IT'S DONE!

Forgot something... using a war resolution as justification to spy on American citizens without informing the FISA court is against the law... bipartisan agreement on that... Using torture on prisoners in defiance of the Geneva conventions is immoral... and in this country of laws, illegal... Killing innocent civilians in a nation that did not directly attack us is equivalentl to mass murder... whaddayou think? Any "high crimes" or "misdemeanors" in there?

jz88 you are another one of those who don't actually READ posts!

I am totally against ANY FOREIGN ENTITY MANAGING OUR POSTS.

Had you actually READ anything you would know this.

Hey you are gonna fit right in here! WELCOME!

Guess the congress wouldn't be too upset if those port contracts stayed with our ONLY PARTNER in the "COALITION"... Think about it...

NO... I did read your posts... and frankly, I'm not sweet on any foreign company controlling ANY American interests HERE... so we agree on this... BUT... if we're going to be candid, guess I'd rather put my faith in an old ally, not one with questionable motives... and UAE is certainly NOT a faithful old ally with a proven track record!!!

MTMAN George Bush didn't create this mess and he doesn't have a way out of it! He inherited the whole thing.

Would you like to trade places with him?

Anyone here running for office?

He needs to clean house on the administration. But I am certainly not going on the news reports many of which are still announcing we sold the ports. I want to see the HEARINGS.

Nobody could have prevented the civil war coming in Iraq. If we hadn't gone in it was still coming, just a different time table.

Hey - we still have options. We could still release Sadaam and let him take back the country and bring peace to it his way again - only a few hundred thousand more Shiites in mass graves, a few more Kurdish villages slaugtered. But then not our problem.

Our Democracy didn't get off to such a good start either, we didn't make a century before we turned on each other.

George W.Bush is the president because the Democrats couldn't come up with a viable candidate and if they don't get their act together by 08 we will have another Republican administration. So far Hillary is looking like the best candidate.

WOW MTMAN guess you missed the news - I don't know WHY but Michael Jackson was asked to LEAVE the residence, no longer welcome there.

"I don't care if they are British, Canadian, Chinese, or Arab - OUR PORTS ARE OURS ALONE. If this is waht free-trade agreements are all about - then I am unequivocably against them."

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!

That's right, blame everything on the "previous administration". After 6 years that's getting really old.

It's an election year. Get a clue. Everyone is trying to distance themselves from Bush who is looking more like a loser every day.

It really doesn't matter who owns those contracts. It is interesting though how once again it is cronyism at its' finest. Same players in the Bush administration have financial ties to another company that is getting yet another billion dollar contract from the government.

Wldflwr...
WOW... would you like to blame the entire nightmarish condition of the planet, global warming, Iraqi civil war, et al, on Bill Clinton and his sex life?

(Please... You should also place blame for these huge deficits on Clinton, right?)

I think it's time for your reality check... Richard Clarke warned the newly inaugurated Bush of the dangers AlQaeda posed... he did nothing... that is, except spend the summer grappling with the decision to deny funding for stem cell research, which might endanger the existence of otherwise, soon-to-be-discarded frozen embryos...

EVERYONE predicted civil war in Iraq... check history... check the news items from 2002-2003...

Our democracy came from WITHIN... no one INVADED us to impose it upon us...

GWB is president... because... voters were again denied their right to vote... WE ALL KNOW THAT BUSH LOST IN 2000 and was APPOINTED by CRONIES OF BUSH 41 in the Supreme Court... it is comical that we've got Iraqis with purple fingers, but we couldn't verify who voted here!!! (Laptop voting machines regulated by DIEBOLD... a MAJOR GOP CONTRIBUTOR!!!)

Our ports are our ports... let's de-politicize this issue... and give the ports back to AMERICAN-RUN COMPANIES... more jobs for our own countrymen... better security...

HOWEVER... let us call to task an administration that has sold our economy up the river to fatten the wallets of the insiders that have pillaged our treasury for their own personal use (sounds a lot like what SADDAM DID... NO?!)

Thanks for the welcome! I'm not about to go back and read other posts but on this thread forward.

The reason I decided to respond this time is because I am sick and tired of this administration. Since W came into office, many things have affected me and my family -besides the lying about WMD's and sending our troops to Iraq - where I do have family and friends. The deficit is growing beyond belief that we can't seem to take care of our own victims of the hurricane, yet we keep sending money to Iraq.
My health insurance has risen 300%! Gas prices are outrageous. I've lost about 45% of my portfolio after 9/11 and I was "forced" to take an early retirement. Their wording was "take the early retirement or risk being layed off". My spouse no longer gets paid overtime due to some law passed; and now that employer has been given the ok by this administration to drop health insurance once we become eligible for Medicare. Things are getting worse than better for us anyway. We're the middle class that gets hit from every side. I'm here to voice my opinion when I feel the need to vent.

"the children would have understood... PARTICULARLY when history is written about this date..."

Well now jz this is no criticism, but you aren't a parent of a 7 year old. They aren't really into history.

"DESTABILIZE the REGION!!!"

well now yes, but WHEN was the middle was EVER STABLE? The whole place has been a powderkeg for 4,000 years.

"LIBBY'S WORDS!!!"

LIBBY is up on charges for LYING. What on earth would make you think he is telling the truth about anything?

"Impeachment is supposed to be for "HIGH CRIMES and MISDEMEANORS"... your boy has perpetrated BOTH... REPEATEDLY!!!"

Well then we can expect the impeachment hearings to begin right away!

Which American Citizens were wiretapped? Got any indication whatsoever Citizens were? Nobody had determined that this action was illegal - yet.

Torture of prisoners is not now nor has it ever been the policy of our military. Are there instances of abuse? Yes. Are those perpetrators prosecuted? Yes.

We have never targeted civilians in Iraq. The insurgents, however, do consistently.

Can you fight any war without innocent civilians getting hurt? No.

What were the civilian casualties in WWII? Korea?

By the way what the heck is the exit strategy for Korea? Kosovo? Somalia?

There are 120 PORTS with foreign management. I don't believe China was part of the coalition.

If Congress listens to the people they will find a way out of all of those contracts!

As for Britain - an old ally. We threw them out of our ports in 1776 and dumped the tea in the process and they should stay out!

Don't you feel that history written while your child IS 7 will be better understood when he is older?
How 'bout DESTABILIZE THE REGION FURTHER... is that BETTER?
Yes... Libby was caught in LIES... but his testimony (sworn) is that he was given clearance by his superiors...
The ONLY reason that this president has not yet been impeached is the LOCKSTEP of the GOP-CONTROLLED CONGRESS, although this port controversy has finally broken through that goose-step...
Please do not cite civilian casualties in real WARS that were precipitated in traditional ways, as opposed to this "WAR" which was totally orchestrated by the Bush administration... remember... Bin Laden and Afghanistan did not EQUAL Saddam and Iraq until the bogus connections made in the lies that started this mess!!!
Exit strategies were always in place as part of planning for each of the wars you cite!!! OH... and the ONLY war where we didn't have an exit strategy... that was VIET NAM... and you saw what happened there!!! (50,000+ American lives lost... for NOTHING!!!)
Finally, you are correct... politics causes strange bedfellows... but, as we have very few friends left in the world, if we count Britain as our "best" friend, ah well... it is what it is...

DESIGNLAB - why not blame this on the administration that initiated the contracts, signed the contracts? Of course the AP could be wrong and we will find out in the hearings.

"It really doesn't matter who owns those contracts."

It matters bigtime if we have to put up a few trillion dollars to buy them out!
You want the Chinese running ports in California? How many do the Russians and the Germans run?

And there is the little matter of just who is going to take over if we manage to cancel them all.

It might not matter when our ports are already obsolete in international shipping circles because we didn't update them. The big ships go to Rotterdam - deep enough, wide enough. We will have to ship everything in from European ports on smaller ships which means more ships.

"It is interesting though how once again it is cronyism at its' finest."

So far as the Dubai company ABSOLUTELY AGREED!

But won't everyone be really unhappy if Haliburton gets the contacts? especially on a no bid status for proximity?

JZ Clinton only gets credit/blame for the legal obstacles he passed on to the next administration. And so far as I know this is the ONLY one.

The defecits? Nope, they are due to the war. And actually I have always thought a civil war was likely in Iraq. It was a gamble to give them a chance to govern themselves.

Thousands of expatriot Iraqis in Europe and Canada and the U.S. begged the United Nations year after year to help them get back their country. This wasn't some lark Bush came up with.

So I guess you never heard of something called the ELECTORAL COLLEGE? by the way I think it sucks and we should ditch it. I think we should go with the popular vote because we can. Since the pony express no longer delivers ballots we have no excuse not to.

"we couldn't verify who voted here!!!"

well it wasn't much of a challenge to identify the Cemetery vote in Florida! And I have to say my state is going to computers! AAACCCKKK this will be a disaster where we live. The little old ladies at the polling stations have enough trouble with the pencils and ballots.

YES WE AGREE ON THIS -"Our ports are our ports... let's de-politicize this issue... and give the ports back to AMERICAN-RUN COMPANIES... more jobs for our own countrymen... better security..."

"Don't you feel that history written while your child IS 7 will be better understood when he is older"

Heck no! I raised 8 kids and have 18 grandkids. Maybe by the time a kid is 30 but had the president done anything other than he did for those very few minutes, those kids would have remembered THAT! The events following were bad enough for 7 year olds! Responsible parents turned off the TV when they were around. This small group of children were entitled to "normalcy" for those few minutes which is the best we can give kids.

jz a point of fact - liars don't mind commiting perjury. They don't suddenly become honest people on some pledge. IF Libby will give up those superiors then we will all be happy!

I might have missed something but I do not recall even one filing for an impeachment by even one Democrat.

WWII was a real war? I don't think so.

Except for the establishment of Israel as a nation again for the first time in 2,000 years.....what did we accomplish? Our allies all became our enemies, our enemies all became our friends. All those men died at Normany for what? The French and the Germans now have co-mingled military units!

"Exit strategies were always in place as part of planning for each of the wars you cite!!!"

Then why do we still have troops in all those places? We have troops in 130 countries. We never exited.

You get no argument from me on VietNam! Eisenhower signed the treaty, Johnson dragged us into it while Mrs. Johnson had the military transport contracts for her Sealand.

And by the way, the Texas connection on all the principles managing the Dubai company is their affiliation with SeaLand.

If ex-patriot Iraqia begged the UN to get their country back, they should have formed their own militias to do it...
No, it was not Bush's lark... it was a concerted effort to put the oil from Iraqi wells under the control of companies with Bush/Cheney connections... a la Halliburton (Kellogg, Brown, and Root)... and they might have succeeded, had the locals bought into the idea... only they haven't... and those "roses at our feet" are IEDs instead...
Deficits from the war? Please do not forget the added burden placed on the poor and middle class due to the big tax cuts given the wealthy and the businesses... These shell games make the stock market look healthy, but the smokescreen will clear before too long... and out there in the sunlight will be starving Americans with outsourced IT, markets glutted with cheap foreign goods, foreign banks collecting interest on debt our grandchildren will never pay off!!!
Nope, even the electoral college didn't matter in 2000... because it was the court that awarded all of the Florida votes to Bush... and even so, there was a ONE VOTE difference... had the vote been apportioned according to number of votes in the state, history would forever have been changed... If only there were electors who had the courage to right the wrongs of the system... and I agree that the system should be revamped... but the smaller states complained that they'd lose importance if popular vote was used... and they have a point... still, fair is fair... and the current system is not...
Let us all agree that if we are to stay a free country, we need to have paperless voting systems outlawed... the consequences will be dire...

airrman - I agree things are just bad and getting worse! Some administration better put some serious caps on the insurance industry! Those crooks! They are as bad as the oil industry!

We have had some really lively discussions here on the blog but one thing we pretty much agreed on is that our NATIONAL GUARD should be home guarding the nation.

And we seem to be all in agreement on no foreign managers in our ports!

SO IT IS GOOD TO SEE NEW NAMES HERE! AND IT IS GOOD EVEN WHEN WE MAY DISAGREE ON SOME POINTS THAT WE DO HAVE COMMON GROUNDS AS WELL!

and we are all on the same sinking ship!

Leaving for the evening... it's been interesting... last comments... I don't know what a "real" war is... but I know that the "war" on terror, like the "war on poverty" isn't going to be "WON" with the blood of our countrymen...
In the past, generals and scholars agree that we have not "exited" but rather have taken on roles that don't include "combat" in all of these places you cite... We aren't shooting people in every foreign nation where we base our people... or at least, we don't spend each day planning to shoot at people... or having those people shoot at us...
If you've missed the Conyers motion, go to his website... I can assure you that there is plenty of "impeachment" rumbling, and it has been going on for probably the past five+ years...
Re liars and perjury, you are correct... we just never know what is or is not the truth... and I place most of what GWB, Cheney, and their spokespeople say right up there with Libby... the dance is so complex that you lose track after awhile... the word SPIN is ever-so appropriate!!! Still... it isn't TRUTH... because the "straight-talkin' Texan" is no more than the most "sweet-talkin', crooked-as-they-come, snake-oil salesman" ever!

Please consider the following facts:

a) Foreign investment in USA
companies is very good for the US economy.

b) These foreign investors, in
this case, are operating a limited number of terminals, repeat, terminals, in these ports, not " controlling " the port itself, as alleged in the media.

c) Dubai Port's acquisition of
P&O's current terminal management contracts, changes nothing except who now becomes the lessee under the head terminal leases.

d) Cargo, terminal & port
security are the responsibility of the USCG and Homeland Security ( God help us ! ), not specifically the terminal operator, in respect to threats such as WMD.

e) Other " foreign " based
companies are presently, and have been, for several years, operating successfully and peacefully, other terminals in the USA, including the ones operated by the Chinese and the
Danes in New York harbor.

f) We have no right whatsoever
to discriminate against any legitimate bona fide foreign
investor based solely on race, religion or creed - I do think that is one of the fundamental precepts of this country, which differentiates us from the rest of the world.

g) Dubai Ports was vetted
(investigated and approved ) by myriad US government
agencies, including the departments of Defense, Justice, State, Homeland Security as well as the National Security Council and the National Economic Council. ( What else does one want? - Do we really think the media and avarice politicians like " Chuckie Cheese " aka Senator Charles Schumer ( D - NY ) have a better handle on what's going on ? - I don't !

h) Unfortunately, the majority
of Americans simply do not yet understand or accept the fact that we are now, yes right now, living in a global economy, whether we like it or not.

Most of get news like this from the TV or the newspaper and our initial opinion and perception is formed by that. If the story is not sufficient in detail to at least answer basic questions and perhaps create a basic perception in the reader or watcher that safety and security have been addressed...you will get chaos on certain touchy subjects.

The key things that most people caught onto was Arabs and ports (unfortunately ownership got out there real quick instead of operations). The natural segue then was "why the hell are we selling our ports to Arabs? On off we go....

So my concern has been, with the constant drumbeat of terror threats over the past four years, that the administration gave no consideration to the perception this deal would create and was not out in front in allaying the fears and questions.

There is no proof which I have seen that a tangible threat would exist as a result of the deal. A lot of speculation and "what if's."

Lots of discussion about PerryMckenzie being a "construct". I am beginning to wonder who is Wildflower. Is this person a representative of the Bush Administration, a Cheney clone, or some.

Always defending regardless of the issue......

This topic sure has drawn out the left wing kooks. Just like moths to a flame I suppose.

When did all you liberals start supporting profiling by religion/ethnicity and grow such hawkish talons? Hmmmm? It wouldn't have anything to do with union opposition to the pact, would it? Millions in campaign contributions to Mrs. Clinton and Chuckles Schumer?

Dog, you can be quite assured that wldflwr is a real person. As for Perry, well I've heard that her image doesn't appear on photographs. Take that for what it's worth.

As for the port issue, if nothing else it should teach us that it is time for this nation to re-evaluate the extent to which our security interests may be jeopardized by foreign ownership or management of American infrastructure. A distinction should be made between privately owned foreign corporations and government owned enterprises.

Interesting that "suddenly" the deal is "on hold"... guess the egg foo young on our "concerned" president was too difficult to wash off... Yes, a global economy is where we're at... but NO... we do not need leadership that worships the almighty underhanded influence deal over the safety of our own... and I'm not just referring to safety PHYSICALLY... I mean safety ECONOMICALLY... The trillions in deficit spending have not been appropriately addressed by anyone in this administration... but as a student of history, and as someone who runs a household with a fair amount of debt, servicing that debt will take it's toll...
Instead of Dubai Ports World, why can't we just employ some US Company... NOT AFFILIATED WITH HALLIBURTON or some other Bush-family-friendly company... to do this for our ports... Those billions of dollars would stay in American bank accounts...

Montego, I usually agree with you on most stuff, this one is frustrating. The missed cruise missile attack on UBL because Bubba didn't want to vaporize a UAE official who was partying with UBL. The talk of possible nuclear technology being smuggled through UAE ports. This stuff bothers me. I bought into all the reasons why it's a good move, then each day I hear new things that make me want to reexamine the dilemma.

Like jz above he is only emotion, no links or documentation to offer, it's a visceral thing.

We need UAE as an ally. As I think unpoor said, if we yank the deal, we will find out if they are really our friend. I suppose a delay would be right thing to do.

Montego, Many of us "liberals" did not support racial profiling, not just because it 's wrong, but because its also not very WISE. If everyone is aware of the "profile" being targeted, then it becomes easier for a person or persons who don't "fit"
that profile to slip under the radar of security personnel. Truly random searches would seem to me to be more of a deterrent to those wishing to do us harm. They may not all have names like mohammad and be wearing a turban!

Besides, the profiling of masses of people has absolutely nothing to do with the blocking of this particular company, owned by this particular government (that already HAS known connections to terrorists!), from having anything to do with managing vulnerable access points ot our country. Surely you don't have to be a "liberal" to see that?

I feel better now that I know Kerry is on board.
http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2189

ACE if you look further into this story, you will find that the UAE was instrumental in helping take down the AQ Khan network.

But the racists will not regonize that fact.

Just one more indication that Bush doesn't have a clue to what is going on. This has the strong odor of the VP, who of course, still has ties to Haliburton, who has many interests in the Mid East.
The present administration will have to go pretty far to to come up with something more idiotic than putting the security of American ports in the hands of potential terrorists.

...UAE was instrumental in helping take down the AQ Khan network.
Posted by: unpoor on Feb 24, 06 | 10:40 am

Here ya go again, trying to confuse me with facts. lol

Newbies: try to educate yourselves... beyond the Bush bashing.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.sanchez24feb24,0,5407565.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines
From the Baltimore Sun

Ports controversy shows enemy is us



By MARY SANCHEZ

February 24, 2006

The U.S. public unfortunately bought the controversy about the nation's seaports - hook, line and sinker.
The Dubai Ports World saga showed our worst attributes. Xenophobia. Isolationism. Ignorance of global trade.

Recent days have illustrated a nation of gullible citizenry, easily ratcheted into a frenzy by report-little, talk-a-lot commentators.

By now, many people are discovering that global trade, is in fact, global.

Foreign-based firms for years have helped run the nation's ports. They do not handle security. That is the job of the U.S. Customs and the Coast Guard. And considering that 24 of the world's 25 major ports are foreign-based, most goods coming into the country must pass through foreign operations. In short, there is virtually no way to participate in global trade without working alongside foreign-owned firms.

So the news that a United Arab Emirates company will handle management of six U.S. ports, including Baltimore's, should have been little news for the general public. A British-owned firm was handling the work prior.

But that's not what happened.

Instead, the nation saw politician after politician latching onto the issue. All sounded like what they are: politicians desperate to appear diligent about keeping the U.S. safe, in an election year.

The issue is not that there are no legitimate questions that can be asked about the security of the nation's ports. The issue is that it took so long for anyone to begin asking valid questions.

An interesting project would be to unwind the "who-called-who" that provided fermentation for the controversy.

A Florida firm, Continental Stevedoring and Terminals, is suing to stop the $6.8 billion deal that gives Dubai Ports World the management of the ports. Continental was a partner under the old arrangement when the ports, including one in Miami, were managed by the British-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co. Several U.S. executives have also worked for Dubai Ports World. One, David C. Sanborn, is the Bush administration's nominee for the job of U.S. maritime administrator.

Treasury Secretary John W. Snow is the former chairman and CEO of CSX Corp. The firm sold its port assets to Dubai Ports World after Mr. Snow left the company. Mr. Snow says he did not involve himself in the U.S. government's approval of the P&O to Dubai Ports World agreement.

Still, the men's industry ties may raise questions of friends in high places giving the nod on lucrative business deals. But it also should calm some fears of "foreign equals terrorist."

True, two of the 9/11 hijackers were from the United Arab Emirates. And yes, they used the country's banks to launder money. But they also used U.S. planes. And they exploited holes in U.S. tracking of legal immigrants to do their evil.

Should we now also distance ourselves from deals with England, which produced Richard Reid, the shoe-bomber?

The reality is that focusing on one nation, one race or religion, will not stop terrorism. But some protection can come from having a broad range of business and political allies in this ongoing battle, including officials of Middle Eastern nations such as UAE.

Worthy of note is that the people closest to the port industry are relatively mum on the controversy. Folks such as the American Association of Port Authorities are concerned about security at the nation's ports. They have been pressuring the White House on budget allocations for infrastructure upgrades and other bureaucratic concerns they believe are leaving us vulnerable.

Terrorism needs willing partners, uninformed partners. People wired to react, not think.

Terrorism needs illogic that will take "foreign" and "Arab" and always conclude "terrorist."

Yes, we've exposed the enemy in the Dubai port's deal. It's us.

I agree with a couple of things I have read in my skimming of these posts (OK, I skimmed two and skipped three): the president's PR on this matter has pretty much sucked. I would like to hear a bit more info before I make a final decision and the administration has been pathetic in providing that info.

I seriously doubt the UAE could "cripple" us by shutting down our ports on a whim. First off, hello?? they're in the for the money, which would dry up pretty quickly if they pulled a stunt like that. Second, how long do you think we would allow that before we took back over? I don't know what kind of imagination you have about what "control" means, but we have guns.

I do see a good way for the administration to gracefully disqualify this deal, possibly without stepping too heavily on the UAE's toes: public disapproval of the idea. After all, the same countries that seem unable to dissuade the cartoon idiots from violent protests should be able to understand when another nation can't control the reactions of its people and especially a democratic nation that HAS to listen to its people.

As for Carter supporting this so it must be a bad idea, well, Schumer and, I think, Hillary and a few other libs do NOT support it. I would be equally afraid of their opinion, if that was all I was listening to.

I still think, based on the information I have available, that this deal should not be such a big one.

Hope this post makes sense. I have not had my coffee yet.

Perhaps someone can explain how this situation has come to pass.

I've read that ports other than those operated by Great Britian, and perhaps now by the UAE, are operated by China, Denmark and Singapore on the West coast.

Is there no one in the U.S. capable of managing port operations ? If the answer is that there is, then why do they not want to operate these ports ?

If any one knows of a website that can explain this issue with facts and without political emotion one way or the other I would appreciate your help. Thanks.

When George Bush and co. decided to use the 9/11 fear card to advance their agenda of regime change in Iraq, agenda that existed prior to 911 (research PNAC if you doubt it!), they set themselves up for this. For 4 1/2 years now, we've watched as they attempted to scared the living daylights out of people with warnimgs of antrhax, nerve gas and mushroom clouds to jusify an un-necessary, PRE-EMPTIVE war. They've tossed aside the law and the constitution to "protect" us from these very things. We watch the terror level warning go up each time they have another deception or scandal to hide.

Now that their propaganda has achieved its intended purpose.....SURPRISE!!! It backfired on them

Exactly ACE.......people wired to react, not think. Foreign and Arab= terrorist. This is their own doing and this is one more example of how clueless this administration is.

However in this case (ports), I think the concerns are actually justified. Kind of funny actually.

PS by funny above I meant peculiar, not amusing. Our concerns are justified because the world has become much more dangerous, due to our RESPONSE to 9/11

Ace: Very informative posts. I guess Arabs armed with MBAs and business suits don't stand a chance when facing a mob with pitchforks and machetes.

AmbyR: Your posts contain a moderate, rational approach. Wish we had a few politicians more inteseted in insight than incite.

Swoflea: Re your satire, "fiction is no stranger to truth". Che Guevara is still an international hero. Chavez of Venezuela and Morales of Bolivia are the latest calling for Che's ascendancy to political sainthood. No reason OBL can't win a gold medal too. He and Jimmy Carter would make wonderful Nobel Laureate mates.

I didn't feel like reading through all the replies with regard to this thread, so pardon me if some of this is a repost.

- Air Force U-2 spy planes and Global Hawk unmanned surveillance aircraft have been based at al-Dhafra air base, along with KC-10 aerial refueling planes. When a U-2 crashed in the UAE last June, killing the Air Force pilot, American officials did not publicly disclose the location "due to host nation sensitivities."

- U.S. sailors and Marines regularly make liberty calls at the port of Jebel Ali, near the UAE's largest city, Dubai.

- In March 2000 the UAE and the United States completed a sales agreement for 80 of the most sophisticated versions of the F-16 fighter jet.

- The threat to commercial shipping in the Gulf during the "tanker war" between Iran and Iraq in the 1980s was the impetus for the United States to develop closer ties to the UAE. Ties grew much closer after Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/bw-exec/2006/feb/22/022209995.html

Remember the "ski resort in the desert" story. That's in Dubai.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_dubai_ski_resort.htm

This is a good article and sums up what Dubai is about:

"What American politicians are not able to do is to differentiate between liberal, open, economically dynamic Dubai and its conservative, moribund, oil-rich neighbours."
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/analysis_and_features/article346674.ece

Some ppl here need to consider the issue using facts and reason instead of emotion and hysteria...

This isn't a matter of "forgetting." 911. This is a matter of bringing those very same dictatorships over to our side. First you get them to become your allies. Then you begin to exchange commerce, military hardware, and ideas. Freedom and the pursuit of happiness are universally desired by ppl. Democracy is more desirable than Tyranny. Think of it as the old Communist "Domino Theory," but in reverse. Democracy is infectious. Once the ppl are exposed to it, they'll never want anything else. But we have to "infect" them first.

The above post was for Colorpurple.

BobbyGee, I second the request for facts made in your 11:09 post. I find it difficult to believe that no American companies are capable, but why are they uninterested? Unions? Longshoremen?

Again, all we hear from the libs is pure emotional nonsense and Bush bashing. He's an idiot. He's lying again. Impeach Bush. It's really Cheney doing it because of Halliburton. Rubbish--right out of the Perry McKenzie handbook for critical thinking.

Jimmy and OBL would be quite a pair. Jimmy could build some free houses for Al-Quaeda training camps so they don't have to live in tents anymore.

Good posts, VIP and Ambyr.

I find it very telling that the people with the most accurate information and specific knowledge of the situation are the most calm about it.

Very interesting and informational posts, gang... but something is still bothering me, and probably many of you... Why didn't we hear anything about this purported deal until it was a "done" deal? Why the secrecy? If the entire thing is kosher and good for us, why did it just "leak out" rather than have a public "vetting"? Strikes me that when you're in a good position you boast, and when you're in a weaker one, you hide...

Re bringing dictatorships to our side... I can't help but think that we brought a particular dictatorship to our side in this very same way... sold him lots of American planes, helped him against a "common enemy"... that dictator... was SADDAM HUSSEIN!!!

Let's think strategically for a minute. The UAE is assisting us in the war on terror. They are pro-American. They actually have quite a modern country and are trying to model their economy after ours. They desire to be a modern resort destination in the Middle East. We have a new democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Remember the old saying that the commies used, divide and conquer? I say let's keep dividing the muslim-arab countries. Reward the ones that side with us. Let them see that it is in their interest. We can isolate and then crush the loonies like Iran and Syria. That's the big picture.

Reagan always said "trust but verify." I am not saying turn our security over to the UAE or not to examine their every move. Work with them, yes, however, they have to continue to prove their worth as an ally and comply with all necessary security requirements.

VIP: exchange of "ideas and military hardware"??!! That's insane! Isn't that exactly what we did with Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war? And look how well that's worked out for us. They don't WANT to be on "our side". They just wanted our dollars for their oil and our technology for their own use.

"Infect"......what an interesting choice of words. The only result of our infecting Iraq is a raging fever. Somehow, I think there's a good chance that this patient won't make it.

It's seems odd to me that management responsibility for any of our ports was ever awarded to a foreign company. I don't think it can be said that Americans have no talent for running these kind of operations. We seem to do quite well at it in ports where we actually do it. A good example is the port of Charleston, S.C., one of the ten largest ports in the country.

http://www.port-of-charleston.com/About_the_Port/About_the_Port.asp

If the good folks of South Carolina can do an outstanding job of managing their harbor, you have to wonder why the New York Port Authority or the Baltimore Port Authority, etc. can't manage their own affairs as well.

Well, I'm no expert. I'm looking at this from a purely political standpoint because this hasn't really developed much beyond that. I don't know the first thing about port security. I'm actually curious about the legitimate security concerns, and what the process is by which such transactions occur and are approved. What are the security concerns?

And here's a question: who would we rather assess security threats on a first-hand basis, the Department of Defense or Congress?

As pointed out earlier, Congress has the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations. Another question I have is: if there was a problem with this sort of process, why has it only arisen now?

Is this a big gaping hole in our security, or a big gaping hole in our credibility to raise legitimate security concerns?

As usual, Bush has tried to go behind everyone's back and pull another fast one. I can't wait to see what kind of WMD-type-lies he makes up to try and get out of this one.

One of you pro-Bushies was arguing about the contract with the British firm. Existing contracts cannot necessary be enforced by the purchaser of a business.

So it is very possible that the administration could void the contract if the purchase goes through. Yet they chose to do all of this in secret.

The people who should have known about it claim they did not know anything about it until last weekend. How preposterous.

Someone is lying again and it's not hard to figure out that it starts with the top: Bush and Cheney. Cheney will soon be fending off lawsuits for negligent discharge of a firearm so that will keep him busy in court for years.

Ultimately, he will part with a few million of his ill-gotten gains from Halliburton and the case will settle quietly.

I reiterate... why the secrecy? If this is a good thing, safe, supportive of our "good friends" why didn't we hear about this well before the action was taken? My guess... like the fish on the docks... something here STINKS... at least we're finally getting a free press to expose the stench before it's too late...

jz
I've only skimmed parts of this thread......

...but...ummm......supposedly the Red Chinese run both ends of the Panama Canal...AND the Long Beach, California port...ever since Clinton signed OK'd the deals......

I've also heard that shipping containers jam-packed with Chinese are being busted all the time in Long Beach.

ALSO...the Red Chinese have stated that they'll nuke the USA if any of their foreign strategic operations are interfered with......

...sooo, anyway...I guess this Dubya/Dubai Deal can't be any worse than what's been going on all along......

I mean...if The President himself doesn't have a clue, then who are WE to complain......

After all......even the major web providers and media outlets are all kow-towing to the Red Chinese and the Arabs......

I've also heard that shipping containers jam-packed with Chinese are being busted all the time in Long Beach. Posted by: VIP on Feb 24, 06 | 12:24 pm

Well, I'll be damned. You mean we're actually checking containers? The scandal!

Sgt, you claim that the UAE wants to become a modern capitalist country.

If they do that, they guarantee that they will be unstable. The people will revolt when they see the rich getting richer and the poor having to eat sand to survive.

Just like the economic conditions among the Palestinians who are subjigated by Israel. Poverty breeds contempt.

If Bush wants a stable partner in the UAE, he will not get one if they insist on unleashing capitalism on their people.

Hey, Jimma Cahtah gave away the Panama Canal, and no one barely noticed...... where were all the liberals security concerns then? They supported it!

jiz: OMG! Two of the 9/11 hijackers came from our allie, the UAE?

Horrors!

I wonder how many of the 12/7 attackers came from our allie, Japan?

unpoor

That's nothing. Those wacky Germans kilt thousands of our troops in ONE HOUR on ONE BEACH on 6/6

That's it! No more Volkswagens and BMW's......

This is pretty funny. Go to story #2 CNN Jack Cafferty wants to impeach Bush over this. My highly technical, intellectual & unemotional response to the article is: WTF?

http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2006/cyb20060222.asp#2

Jack Cafferty wants to impeach Bush because...he wants to impeach Bush. Any excuse will suffice.

One of two things will happen after Congress delves into this transaction: it will stand on its own merits and be allowed to go through, or legislation will be enacted (and a veto overridden) to stop the deal. And that's the size of it.

If Cafferty actually cares about this issue, he wouldn't be making an ass out of himself and would list substantive questions he wants answered. I and may people on this board, let alone around the country, have taken that approach.

cjk, you must be related to that other gal with the similar initials. You both belong to the American Defamation League. Capitalism is bad? Capitalism, my dear, equals freedom. People yearn for freedom, especially in the middle east where they have been pushed around by their ayatollahs and mullahs for centuries. One of these days, they will realize that these dictators are just power hungry SOB's and toss them out. When they do, we should be there. If we can help with regime change, we should.

This port thing is a real conundrum. I do a lot of business with several of the ports on the eastern seaboard. Port management has never been a real problem so far. They all want tighter security, but you have to respect the flow of commerce, too. You need a pragmatic, balanced approach.

Ace, good point about the Panama Canal. That idiot Carter sold us out on that deal and now he wants to sell the control of our ports to an arab nation. Is he really that gullible or is there something else going on here?

cjk, it is clear that you don't like our economic system. Maybe you should move to Communist China and become a lawyer for the Catholics that they are rounding up for practicing their religion.

And the Previous administrations were republican Wldflr.
swimmom I don't know if president Bush will benifit from the ports deal but CNN say's his family will.
No Wldflr the GOP attempted to impeach Clinton becaues they wanted to get even for Nixion ; Thankfully it didn't work .
Hey Ace the lease ran out on Panama and Cahtah was only following the law.

On Ports and Scrutiny
By: Neil Stevens · Section: Diaries

This is a conversation I've just had with an imaginary "port deal" opponent (IPDO).

IPDO: This deal has to be blocked?

Me: Why?

IPDO: We can't let foreigners control our ports!

Me: Of course we can; this proposed deal is between a UK firm and a UAE firm.

IPDO: But the British are our allies.

Me: So are the UAE. For what it's worth, the State Department says the UAE have been 'a key partner in the War on Terror'.

IPDO: But the UAE are the home of many radical Muslims.

Me: So is Great Britain. What's the difference?

IPDO: The UAE are Arab.

Me: So?

IPDO: Our enemies are primarily Arab Muslims.

Me: Are you saying that this company is going to be able to bring terrorist employees into the country?

IPDO: Maybe. If you control the ports, you can bring in what you want.

Me: And only Arabs can smuggle?

IPDO: Well, no. But they're more likely to commit terrorist acts.

Me: So until now, our ports haven't needed oversight?

IPDO: Well, sure they have. Most British people are decent, and of course the employees actually working the ports live here, but you never know who will slip through the cracks.

Me: So no matter who runs the ports, careful DHS oversight is needed?

IPDO: Yes.

Me: So why should we discriminate here, and implicitly attack an ally in the War on Terror in the process?

IPDO: ...

Me: Why do that, and in so doing undermine the praise we've been giving President Bush for his leadership in the War on Terror, and join in unfounded cries of corruption?

IPDO: Well it sounded right at the time, but when you put it like that...

No Wldflr the GOP attempted to impeach Clinton becaues they wanted to get even for Nixion ; Posted by: cogito on Feb 24, 06 | 1:23 pm

Clinton was impeached because he lied to a Federal Grand Jury.

I don't know... Posted by: cogito on Feb 24, 06 | 1:23 pm

Please take the responsibility to educate yourself on the issue.

I think in the dispassionate light of day, an Arab nation which is bucking their "street" opinion is displaying a set of brass balls.

Honestly.

The more liberal hysterics scream irrationally, the more I'm siding with Bush on this.

AMBY R great post even without your coffee!

BOBBYGEE"Perhaps someone can explain how this situation has come to pass."

I think all of America is waiting for this information! It's all just clear as mud how this happened. But with 360 ports and a full 30% without management outsourced that is 120 port [but check my math!] Husband read a newspaper article -is TDY elsewhere - that said it isn't even the PORTS, only selective terminals within them. hmm

COLORME "They've tossed aside the law and the constitution"

This is presumption and so far there has been no determination whatsoever made on this. If there is then we will see charges filed and impeachment proceedings. So far nothing!

" Foreign and Arab= terrorist. This is their own doing and this is one more example of how clueless this administration is. "

It is just amazing how people can hear the same things, read the same things, see the same things and draw opposite conclusions. Okay maybe there have been very mixed messages? but the President has been on over and over and over pronouncing the problem with terrorists is NOT a problem with muslims. We are not at war with Islam.

"Our concerns are justified because the world has become much more dangerous, due to our RESPONSE to 9/11"

Actually you have this backwards. The world has become much more dangerous because of 9/11. There is no other response that could have neutralized this.

Okay - suppose you explain, please, just exactly how the administration should have responded that would have been more proactive, productive and safe.

Ace, don't pay much attention to the Village Idiot. His memory does not include many facts. Thanks for correcting the record.

Zappa, welcome to the blog. You will notice the liberals here tend to scream and emote far more than they actually think.

Unpoor, we are at war with much of the muslim world. You will see what I mean as this war continues to expand to its actual proportions. What we are dealing with in this "deal" is an attempt by the Secretary of the Treasury to broker a sweetheart deal for his former company.

If we are to prevent Iran from landing a container full of nuclear weapons and then detonating same, we need to take every measure to insure that our ports are as secure as a port can be. The Dubai company is only proposing to operate one of several container facilities at several major U.S. ports. And in peacetime, before 9-11, there would be no problem with that. But that was then and this is now and there is a problem now. Period. If we are to prevent a far worse attack than 9-11, we have to deal with possibilities. Waiting for actualities will be too late.

BOBBYGEE " facing a mob with pitchforks and machetes."

I don't know which stations you are watching. I have seen rocks and sticks. Haven't seen any farmers rioting, they are busy farming.

Dr D. You have a cite of UAE government complicity in the attacks? No? I didn't think so.

But they've all got diapers on their heads, and that's what counts, right?

There is a company in Singapore that runs many ports thoughout the world. They are simply not interested in the contract to manage any of our ports. The reason is that they do not want to have to deal with the American unions and strike threats, unreasonable demands for salaries and benefits, etc. I wonder if the UAE will change their mind when they consider what they will have to contend with.

And notice that some of the most prominent Democrat critics of the deal get the most money from the dock unions!

VIP "Once the ppl are exposed to it, they'll never want anything else. But we have to "infect" them first."

True and people don't want to remember that the leadership in Iraq is comprised of people who spent the Sadaam years living in the west in democracies. Also the younger generations of leaders, specifically the kings, all went to college in the west in democracies. They know what they are and why they work better.

Of course I have a friend in Greece who says their opinion of our efforts in the middle east are that they, the Greeks, tried in vein to introduce democracy there long long ago and it didn't take then and it won't take now.

JZ88 " Why didn't we hear anything about this purported deal until it was a "done" deal? Why the secrecy?"

I think we ALL want to know that! How come our representatives never knew this was going on for five years? Who knew? When did they know? Why didn't they say anything?

For that matter the workers at 120 ports all knew...where were they? Did the pay and benefits improve?

"Strikes me that when you're in a good position you boast, and when you're in a weaker one, you hide..."

I see no possible reason for sitting on this till it was done except knowing there would be a huge flap over it!

and while we are looking at putting vile dictators in place let's not forget the Shah of Iran and Castro.

Fuzzy: That is the only the democrats are bringing up the issue... big $$$ from the thug dock unions.

Since when else have the liberals been concerned with the war on terror in the past two years? Did you really think it had to do with security? HA!

Actually, Zappa, many of the folks on this blog don't think much at all, they just seem to echo whatever their political handlers want them to. Evidence of this is pretty clear from the discussion here about who's managing our ports. What we're seeing here is a major flip-flop by right-wing folks: a lot of credibility is being lost. You really can't go from one day blaming liberals for being soft on terrorism to the next saying it's okay to let the Arabs manage our ports, It just doesn't work!

No link, that is not all. The UAE was one of three governments to recognize the Taliban's rule in Afganistan. Two of the conspirators in the attack on 9-11 came from Dubai and a good deal of their money as well. While we are at war with much of a muslim world that does not support even the basic tenets of conduct or decency, we simply cannot afford to open this kind of breach in our security.

Paul, the Secretary of the Treasury is a former officer of the british company being bought by Dubai. The Bush administration has been revealed on a number of occasions to be willing to sell out the security of the United States in various sweetheart deals. I have never claimed to be a fan of President Bush and this latest bit of dangerous nonsense doesn't help.

I concur with your overall assessment and especially the mention that a total absence of a proactive stance from Bush's administration needs to be highlighted. I can't say which is worse, them being so out of touch as to not anticipate this kind of backlash or them knowing it would happen but doing then nothing to be ready to counter it. Where is Karl Rove? Many conservative talk show hosts are now running with this calling it some sort of 'Harriet Meyers moment' even though Bush had little if anything to do with the sale occurring in the first place.

However, I cannot completely get into your canoe in allowing Congress to ordain every corporate foreign trade agreement on the basis of a security review because they will find a way to involve themselves with everything they can given the opportunity. I really do not want Congress micro-managing anything because the usual result is just more pork spending with little or no improvement. I'd rather trust that we have experts who can do the job correctly unaffected by partisan posturing and grandstanding.

And yes I agree that DP ought to have a press conference to answer the reasonable questions and also fight back at the outrageous insinuations.

Lemme help you out, Paul, the correct order is this:

1) Get your facts right
2) Condescend

Failure to complete step 1, or completing the steps out of order will get you labeled as just another self-important blowhard.

In the past, derf, the liberals had succeeded in subborning the Supreme Court. So the Republicans did not choose to challenge the FISA legislation. Now the membership of the Supreme Court has changed and will change further. FISA will eventually be ruled unconstitutional. The constitution does NOT grant congress the power to micromanage a war.

The present confustification can be laid at the feet of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Snow.

FISA is still a law until and if it is ruled constitutional. Until then, no one has the authority to ignore it.

SGT SLAUGHTER excellent post! THANKYOU!

PAUL - ABSOLUTELY!

ACE "Is this a big gaping hole in our security, or a big gaping hole in our credibility to raise legitimate security concerns?"

WOW talk about your tough questions! Who knows? Nobody is jumping up and down in Congress that I can tell complaining about the Chinese. From everything I have seen there won't be any worker changes, they aren't bringing in their own dock workers from Dubai....

CJK our not-actually-a lawyer "Existing contracts cannot necessary be enforced by the purchaser of a business."

Guess you didn't actually read the postings. It has been written here repeatedly that contracts must have out clauses. This one may. We don't know yet.

It will be even more interesting to see which Congressional committees have been involved all along!

George Bush wasn't even involved in this. This level of negotiations and contracting is not Oval Office stuff provided the powers in place charged with such dealings are doing their jobs.

What people who "should have known" - you? me? When this whole deal was set up in 2000 all the contingencies were covered and so far as anyone knows all have been scrupulously followed.

"Someone is lying again"

Maybe but maybe not. That's what the hearings are for. Good darned thing you don't claim to be a judge because you PRE judge everything without any facts whatsoever.

"Cheney will soon be fending off lawsuits for negligent discharge of a firearm so that will keep him busy in court for years."

CJK WHO would be filing? Not the victim. They are friends. This is bullshit - and that isn't a bad word citypeople, it's a farm term. We try not to step in it out back.

"ill-gotten gains from Halliburton"

So by this, CJK, we may reason that you don't own stock in Haliburton. Too bad, they have more than doubled in value in the last year. You might want to rethink that. You might also figure out - since you obviously aren't working on any of those all-critical cases of yours today- how to read an SEC filing and find out who is Haliburton! SEC is online.

"If they do that, they guarantee that they will be unstable. The people will revolt when they see the rich getting richer and the poor having to eat sand to survive."If Bush wants a stable partner in the UAE, he will not get one if they insist on unleashing capitalism on their people."

Oh yes CJK just as we have in this nation. Yet another reminder to us that you are an unapologetic COMMUNIST.

"Palestinians who are subjigated by Israel."

AND AN ANTISEMITIC!

JZ88 "at least we're finally getting a free press to expose the stench before it's too late..."

Well we hope so but our media has become the problem lately. I don't think anyone can really trust them. Just two days ago Katie Couric on Today started off the show with this inane remark about the adminstration selling our ports to arabs! sigh

VIP who cares who runs the Panama Canal? didn't we return it to Panama?

Good point on the Chinese and something I have been complaining about for days! We can't trust the Chinese! They don't even pretend to be friends and allies.

ACE -"You mean we're actually checking containers?"

If we start opening every container commerce will come to a screeching halt in this country.

UNPOOR "I wonder how many of the 12/7 attackers came from our allie, Japan?"

excellent point and let's not ever forget that Germany didn't attack us [ except for those couple of aborted torpedo attempts off the coast of NC our government didn't tell us about ]

I say let the impeachment hearings begin. And then sit back and watch the results. We should be sure to stock up on popcorn!

JOHNNYSACK you are savvy! Nobody believes CJK is an attorney anymore than Perry McKenzie is a teacher. And we all have 'suspected' all along that CJK is in fact CZA who works as some sort of legal assistant. Their sterling knowledge of the law is pretty much equal!

We don't, however, have any clue what opinions CZA has on topics because she can't get past blogger-bashing for her ego gratification. CJK is full of opinion! Actual opinions! He/she/it just happens to be clearly a COMMUNIST.

The President does, BigDog.

COGITO "And the Previous administrations were republican ."

THE TOPIC is about the sale of P&O, the British firm and their leases to manage six of our largest ports. Their contract was struck in 2000. So what's your point?

"CNN say's his family will."

CNN covered the fact that the leadership of Dubai gave a tidy donation to George Sr library. If they said anymore you might want to post it here so we can be enlightened.

Clinton was impeached for PERJURY.

In your zeal to discredit everyone else here you are only discrediting yourself.

"FISA is still a law until and if it is ruled UNconstitutional. Until then, no one has the authority to ignore it."

Posted by me: I meant to type "UNCONSTITUTIONAL".

The FISA law was and remains a power grab by congress.

I've noticed in my time here in Massachusetts that if you do an informal bumpersticker poll, the vehicles most likely to have Bush/Cheney bumperstickers on them are pickup trucks. I realized this was because the people who buy pickups are usually folks who take an active role in their own lives, work hard, and get things done. The cars most likely to have Kerry/Edwards bumperstickers on them are old Volvos driven by fragrant women (or men who look like them) with Dutch-architect glasses who like to READ about getting things done.

How do you explain the ones without bumper stickers? They are neither?

Was that the "last straw"?

Big Dog: Moderates! of course. : )

Thanks, I was worried......

DARRYL WE AGREE! "What we are dealing with in this "deal" is an attempt by the Secretary of the Treasury to broker a sweetheart deal for his former company. "

I think so too and have been wondering just who in the cabinet could have pulled this off, would have been so certain of his position with Bush he would go ahead with this without telling the boss. NOW IT MAKES SENSE! I dont' think the President is in a position to say or do anything publicly - YET. But I bet things have heated up at the White House!

ah but from there you just go downhill again. WE ARE PROVIDING THE SECURITY FOR THE PORTS! So if Iran slips anything in blame Homeland Security.

Tha'ts a hoot - how much do we trust HS?
or was it only FEMA that can't manage God?

"Waiting for actualities will be too late."

ENTIRELY TRUE but then isn't that the American way?

We knew for at least ten years what would happen to New Orleans if a major storm ever hit. Katrina wasn't a #5 and it didn't hit directly -goodness imagine what could happen in that event!

I really hope ColorMe comes up with some good ideas on how we might have managed things differently after 9-11 and I mean that sincerely, not facetiously. You don't have to be in Washington to have any ideas. In fact, it might help to NOT be in Washington.

FUZZY I read - could be wrong - that Singapore DOES manage some of our ports. But the article didn't say which ones, and there is a lot of misinformation floating.

"And notice that some of the most prominent Democrat critics of the deal get the most money from the dock unions!"

Good point and the unions haven't objected to foreign management and what does that mean?

PAUL "You really can't go from one day blaming liberals for being soft on terrorism to the next saying it's okay to let the Arabs manage our ports, It just doesn't work!"

TRUE! and I haven't seen anything on this blog that indicates "liberals" are soft on terrorism. If anything I would have thought it was the "conservatives". And it isn't okay for ANYONE to manage our ports but us.

DARRYL "While we are at war with much of a muslim world"

We are NOT AT WAR WITH MUCH OF THE MUSLIM WORLD. We are at war with a good sized spread out TERRORIST entity with a few THOUSAND people in it. They aren't a drop in the bucket relative to "much of the muslim world".
And we are at war with NO NATIONS!

big wow - 2 people from an entire nation!

"The Bush administration has been revealed on a number of occasions to be willing to sell out the security of the United States in various sweetheart deals."

So kindly delineate a few Darryl.

This even was inherited by Bush. The guidelines for a change of flag was written into the original plans. He has no way out as the President! Now Congress may find one but they have to be given time to do so and that is exactly what is happening. The company in Dubai has agreed to put things on hold on the U.S. ports to give Congress an opportunity to look into it and jump one way or the other.

DERF - good question. WHERE IS ROVE?
And it was said on this blog long ago that Harriet was a decoy candidate and the real candidate would please stand up later and that is exactly what happened.

"I really do not want Congress micro-managing anything "

Obviously Clinton didn't either because the contract revision process bypassed them.

When DP has a press conference it will be Bob Doyle talking in some likelihood since they just hired him as their Lobbyist on this matter. OR it could be their chief counsel - an American.

DARRYL - once again -"The present confustification can be laid at the feet of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Snow"

YES YES YES YES AND YES.

BIGDOG what is it with everyone not willing to wait for the hearings and the investigations? The whole FISA thing is being looked at. And the more daylight there is the more this appears to be just another media event, that things were duly covered.

WELCOME FRYXELL! Your presence will certainly balance things here! We were starting to slide off the left wing.

Actually a friend of mine in response to my description of this blog community, declared it is NOT A BLOG. It is a discussion group where we are allowed to throw chairs.

We do get a bit rowdy from time to time. But in the end on issues such as foreign management of ports we can come together in concenses after the mud stops flying.

DR D: We" DIDN'T sell anything. "We" don't have the authority to approve or disapprove of the sale by one foreign entity to another. All "we" can do is enforce the contract and our regulations.

There was an existing contract and procedures in place. P&O sold their interest. What "we" then do is act in accordance with the contract and those procedures.

DPW met the requirements and were duly approved for substitution as principal in the existing contract. What do you want to do? Breach the contract and reap the results, just because you have a "suspicion"?

First, I would expect that there be a contingency clause that states the deal is kaput if the US doesn't approve in accordance with the contract and US regulations.

But that the US won't do an intensive investigation? How the heck can O&P legally include that in a sale agreement?

That alone would put them in a breach of contract with the US, and they wouldn't have that asset to sell. That's just not reasonable.

I hate to be oblique, but why is everyone sh--ing their pants?
It's not like they would control the port, or at least any more than Southwest would control the airports. We would still off load everything, run security, and re load everything.

So where's the problem?

I can't understand what benefit is gained from dredging up the past... the past is dead... over... can no longer cause us trouble... unless, of course, problems created in the past are ONGOING... at which point, there are things that we need to CHANGE... (BIG MISTAKE IN THE PAST... ELECTING INCOMPETENT LEADERS THAT ARE STILL CURRENTLY IN POWER... perhaps an impeachment for REAL 'high crimes and misdemeanors' is in order!!!)
Yes, there have been mistakes made on both sides in the past... so be it... in the immortal words of Tony Soprano "fuggedaboudit"...
Isn't it high time this administration gets SOMETHING RIGHT?

Thanks Wldr: I have been looking for new hobbies since Gene passed away and I enjoy this laptop. I enjoy chatting with everyone.

Well I for one, sure would like to know then, what exactly it is that they WILL be doing. If they are managing the ports, but not loading, unloading or handling security, WHAT is their role?

WldFlwr, thanks but it doesn't take a genius. Both characters seeth with hatred for our country. They've tried to alter the style a little. That's all. It's transparent. Speaking of un-American, this other one, Cogito or Cognito, what a loser.

I read some of what has being said ehrer the last few days about meand let me tell people something ive had it with being called names like construct and phoney and all the rest of it. you can just all go jump for all i care. I AM an english teacher and I AM a Democrat and a union officer and proud to be a FEMINIST,you dont like it then toobad!!!!! I dont let the kids in classget way with name calling and you idoits cant either!!all youneocons voted for a phony election which bush stole from Gore and then from Kerry the next time with his oil money. so your a bunhc of hypocrtes. Ms. Wildfir you are just mad cuz i will not be control by the likes of you unlke your little group of unpoor and monego and daryl and your gaggel ofassorted other rightwing christians. This place is still free spech here and i intent to exdercise my 1st amenament rights. I got every right to object to having holdiay for washinton and lincoln who deserves nothing! If the geneva a convention was areound then they'd be tried for war crimes and genocide for what they did to the Native American tribes and to the Africn-americans in regards to slabvery.Heres tjhis port thing and nobody can see how clear is that the zionists in isreal are behind this whole things to make all muslims look bad to sqyuash this deal and then take the ports for themsevles under the disgise of the Swiss bankers theey got on the payuroll. The people in the Arab Emorites are just playing for pawnsin the whole sceheme.

OK.... Just to recap my takes on this (for context): First, I was skeptical of the deal, but I reserved judgement. Then, I toyed with the idea that giving Arabs a stake in our security might not be a bad idea.

Then Jimmy Carter agreed with
the idea, and I was therefore pretty firmly convinced the idea must be Satan-spawn.

So...... that brings me to now.

& I am still trying to figure out what the heck Perry just said.

and I also have got to say this one more thing and that I am sourly disppointed in you paul and mtman because I have been very strong to supporitve most of to your postitions and we agree on a bunch of stuff and i cant beleive that you too buyinto this trash taking of Ms.Wildfwlr and her stoogies that I amsome fake person or whatever.

Dear Friends:

Before I provide my opinion of the port contract, based on the current data I have reviewed, I want to applaud the level of discussion that I have witnessed on this thread. There are obviously strong points of view on the subject, pro and con. However, everyone seems to be striving to provide actual data, links to pertinent information, and thoughtful review of the material. It is one reason that this is the only forum in which I participate -- the high level of respectful engagement.

That being said, I wanted to weigh in on the conclusions I have come to. I find I must side with wildflower on this matter, as I respect her opinions immensely on matters financial and economic. Additionally, administrations personnel whom I do respect (e.g., Rumsfeld, Rice) have indicated that security issues regarding this transaction have been reasonably addressed.

Now, many of you have a strong opposing point of view, and do present analysis against which it is difficult to argue. I wish simply to describe some of my reasons for coming to the conclusions I did.

A few posters have indicated that the contract does not pass the "smell test". Frankly, I have my own "smell test", and the Democrats and the mainstream, anti-Conservative media do not pass this test. The speed that this firestorm developed raises big red flags for me.

Why is it only now that someone has had an issue with this contract? It has been in the works for 5 months. Consider the news items that have been on the forefront during the past 5 months -- The Alito Hearings, QuailGate, and the improvements in the economy. These events have made the Democrats and/or the MSM look utterly ridiculous and archaic. Suddenly, a grand opportunity to attack Bush/Conservatives/Republicans on national security appears fully developed the weekend after the press hissy fits and hypocritical Democratic allegations of "WH secrecy" post Quail-Gate. And with the Congressional elections looming in November, what better way to hamstring the Republicans in an attempt to win back control of Congress -- aided and abetted by the very willing MSM.

I know a good Conservative segregates politics from national security. However, I do not believe the extreme liberal politicians (such as Shumer and Clinton) do. And it is interesting that they have found a way to appear "right/moderate" on security - a Democrat weak spot. Furthermore, if the deal is quashed, and the UAE is no longer friendly to the US, the US military may lose access to landing areas and regional ports that are critical for the GWOT. Democrats see themselves as gaining anytime the GWOT/Iraq is not going smoothly.

There is an additional matter that concerns me, when it comes to arguments against the port. That is the matter of the unions, which are essentially wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Democrats. I must ask myself why the Longshoreman's union is against the deal, besides the stated national security concerns. Apparently, this union recently went on strike because during the busy holiday season last year they didn't want to utilize a bar-code tracking system that would enhance transportation speed and efficiency. This action was very harmful to commerce during a critical time of the year. I must admit, I trust unions very little, and their opposing this deal raises even more red flags for me.

Obviously, the UAE is far from being perfect when it is compared with liberty-loving nations that value individual freedoms. However, overall, the Emirate's attitudes seem to have taken a more positive turn post 9-11. They are heavily involved in the GWOT as an ally to us -- and no small risk to themselves. We rely on the UAE for intelligence, air strips, ports, and other means of assistance. And, as Smartso has indicated in her post, they have proved themselves as an honest partner in trade. We need to respect their positive contributions to America.

Granted, as with most other counties (and the USA is no exception), the UAE has its share of Islamofascist nuts. And because of the UAE's location, they are in close proximity to the tree that generates those nuts. Definitely, there is a justified reason for concern. On the other hand, the UAE need only look at Afghanistan and Iraq to understand the consequences of security breeches at these ports. That should be a powerful incentive for great security.


However, I must say that in certain respects, I trust the UAE more in security matter than the Democrats. The UAE has over 6 billion reasons to be extremely concerned with port security. Yet, as I mentioned earlier, the Democrats have reason to desire set-backs in the GWOT. Consider Al Gore's recent speech in Saudi Arabia, which was repulsively critical of his own country. Then there was Jimmy Carter's statement that torture was occurring at the hands of American soldiers. Then there was Rep. Murtha's call for immediate troop withdrawal. These statements by current and former leaders are played-up in the Middle East, inspiring more anti-American sentiment and threatening to lower the morale of our troops.

Finally, we would be in more of a position to persuade the UAE to accept Israel, make needed reforms, and promote capitalism if we engage them in honest trade and business. They are not perfect, but there are few truly free nations on this planet. Exporting our freedoms through trade seems wise, because I think the USA cannot always afford the military option in guaranteeing human rights and freedoms.

Therefore, for all these reasons, I find myself inclined to support the port deal. I think the White House has been very foolish in how it has handled this matter, and has made many critical mistakes. I do think a Congressional review would be prudent, because of the lack of foresight of the committee that approved the plan. The UAE representatives also need to get in front of Americans and explain how they will allay our reasonable security concerns.

I also think that should the port deal be completed, there should be a panel, comprised only of military and security experts, that stringently review the security matters associated with these six ports annually. Additionally, this would be a grand opportunity to develop effective plans to enhance overall port security in this country.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. Derf

Wow... Derf ...

Pro or con you have to agree, that is what I call a post!

Thank you for sharing your well thought out views.

For a better understanding of the world shipping industry see the article:

A Ship Already Sailed: American ceded its Seaport Terminals to Foreigners Years Ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/24/business/24terminal.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Posted by: derf on Feb 24, 06 | 5:40 pm

Great comments. Took 30 minutes to read! How long did it take to write?

Jz88, take notes... that is a post.

derf: Great post. There's certainly plenty said that I can find agreement with.

I'll be looking forward to your being soundly attacked by our resident anti-Bush liberals. (Defined as liberals who automatically oppose anything Bush has ever favored.)

Whew ! I didn't make perry's "right wing Christian" list, that is unless I'm in the "gaggel"

I see perry is "sourly disppointed" with two of her closest friends and supporters. Oh well, I guess birds of a feather don't always flock together. Maybe it's the bird flu thing.

WldFlwr: Please. "mob with pitchforks and machetes" is just a figure of speech. Your parsing the image. Please try not to 'edit' as some do.

Did anybody say this yet? "The best way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend."
-Art of war.

Or - "Keeps your friends close and your enemies even closer."

However, the problem is that the UAE is not our enemy. They are in fact one of the most westernized arab states. I can't think of a company with a greater potential to keep terrorists out of their ranks than DP and they have already proven their ability to do just that. It is certainly in their business interest to do so. Some company based in Kansas isn't going to know boo about what's going on in the 'arab street'.

Though I'd rather see a US company do the work the unions killed them off just like many other businesses in the US; like they are doing to the US auto industry.

The enemy isn't the UAE; the enemy are those that created the situation whereby there are no competitive companies in the USA to do the work. We even have to contract foreigners to build our military hardware and that just isn't right.

I want a national right to work law!

paul, you are wasting your time and energy - those who would actually benefit from reading the link you provided, will not go near it (they have already said it many times - no "liberal" reading for them). The fact that they might actually learn something does not enter their small, closed minds, which makes them post comments which include erroneous information (when they believe they are "educating" bloggers), as in a post referring to Tower #5 !!!! There NEVER was such a thing! They show their ignorance over and over again.

Wow Derf... must have taken you an entire Bush administration contract- vetting time period to type that one...
Some of your points have validity, but humor us for a moment...
Why is it that you totally believe any country you give "favored" status to has the OBLIGATION to be trustworthy? There certainly is much evidence to the contrary!!! In other words, giving the UAE the "privilege" of running our port operations in no way guarantees that they a] will continue to cooperate with us on other matters b] will remain stable, as the entire middle east is very unstable at this juncture, and c] should be installed as the new contractor without including our elected officials (and I mean congressmen and senators here) in the discussion.
The bi-partisan outcry here should be some indication that there is more to this sweetheart deal than meets the eye... and NO, it isn't the liberal media, who've given this president and his crony politics a pass continually since that August 2001 memo titled 'Bin Laden posed to strike on US Soil' was ignored...

Very impressive post derf... good job.

I noticed out resident liberals above won't touch it with facts, just more name calling. (now there is a surprise)

One more thing: the fact that the current lease was signed in 2000 does not mean it did not EXIST before 2000, as that same "informed" blogger keeps implying, you know which one - the one looking for planes that flew out of JFK on 9/11!

I'm a liberal... and name-calling isn't my gig... However, there are many sides to this issue... the only incontroverible is the fact that we're relinquishing control of our ports (which are probably the weakest link in our security chain) to a country with questionable yet direct links to North Korea, Russia, and Iran... one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban as a legitimate government... and with interesting ties to JOHN SNOW... so I say... Whoa... can't we just see ALL of the facts before we hand over this 6+ Billion contract?

jz88keys, I don't particularly care for name-calling either, but I am really tired of being on the receiving end, and if they can dish it out, they had better be prepared to take it.

Before I forget again, welcome! I am glad to see you and a few other bloggers joining. Maybe we can get to a better balance of opinions - it was getting too one-sided.

The point I was (poorly) making was that your argument is that the company can't be trusted to run the ports here, but you don't recognize that the US is dependent in big way on maintaining security of US assets in a port run by the same company in the UAE.

I didn't say that the UAE and the UK are the same. I said the UAE was vetted according to protocol. If you don't think US security protocol can be trusted, we have bigger problems than who is going to run the ports. And in addition, I'm not depending on my expertise, I am just saying that I am familiar with what the agencies due in these types of cases, and I am comfortable that security concerns were addressed properly. My only reason for stating such is to show that the opposing view depends on NOT trusting our security protocols and some notion (not based in fact) that our security will be compromised by DPW, as compared to P&O. If we are depending on the contractor for our security, WE ARE THE ONES MAKING THE MISTAKE - no matter who the contractor is. Therefore, my argument isn't that we have to trust the UAE contractor because we use a UAE port, but that we are responsible for our own security and the choice of contractor should not be based on some suspicion without fact. The security protocol is our country's best effort to determine the facts, but some who still feel uneasy want Congress to take a shot, or to just reject the contract out of hand. If we try our best to find the flaw, and none is found, and we reject the substitution of DPW in the contract anyway, we will reap some bad harvest.

In the end, we all have to do what needs to be done. I respect the notion that you are being cautious. The problem is that simple paranoia is going to give us bigger problems down the road. WE can't base our foreign policy on mere suspicion. We have to develop the necessary security protocols, employ them and act accordingly. There is no evidence that didn't happen in this case.

jiz88: These tinfoil theories you come up with cause me to not take you seriously on this debate. You really think Bush did not reject the deal because of relations with Arab families? More DU sounding talk from it.

jz88keys - don't expect those who promote one day hatred for all "diaper heads" and then the next day laud our "great ally" the UAE to be able to discern the reality that has been revealed - that control of the operation of many if not most of our American ports is in the hands of foreigners. There are some extreme twist-meisters on this blog, who are compelled to back anything and everything George W. Bush and his Administration tells us is "good for Americans".

I'm still someone very concerned that any foreign entity - let alone a state-owned one from the Middle-East - operates any American ports.

Looking at today's posts, it's obvious that Sgt. Slaughter only shows up when the ideas on the blog supposedly "turn left". I'm sure montego has no idea why.

PerryMcKenzie - anyone who would state that (paraphrased) "Washington is just some general, and Gloria Steinem is the real hero is neither educated, an educator, or a real person. I am sure whoever "created" your TIME blog personality is again trying to suck others into an intellectual "black hole".

BTW, NASCAR is a sport where the drivers are constantly turning their steering wheels to the left. It is also the most popular spectator sport in the land. What does that say about our country? (asked by someone who watches NASCAR regularly and is a big fan of the 24 car)

BobbyGee,

Your comment:

"I see perry is "sourly disppointed" with two of her closest friends and supporters. Oh well, I guess birds of a feather don't always flock together."

Apparently you haven't read my previous posts about her.

She's not real!

She's a construct of some of your right-wing friends.

Her last post is really a right-wing slam at me and Mtnman.

Note it's unusual clarity:

"and I also have got to say this one more thing and that I am sourly disppointed in you paul and mtman because I have been very strong to supporitve most of to your postitions and we agree on a bunch of stuff..."

Please excercise some caution in your posts. Don't be so easily duped!

paul - good point. Funny how PerryMcKenzie can spell and use grammar correctly when it comes to being "disappointed" that we see through the thin veil of falsehood he/she/it represents. Given BobbyGee's hatred of all things "60's" and how PerryMcKenzie represents a "60's" viewpoint, I wouldn't be surprised one bit is the ventiloquist voicing the dummy entity PerryMcKenzie is none other than BobbyGee himself.

LINK there were clauses built in should the company be sold. The American ports are only around 10% of the P&O holdings that were sold.

JZ88-"I can't understand what benefit is gained from dredging up the past... the past is dead... over... can no longer cause us trouble... unless, of course, problems created in the past are ONGOING" As in contracts from it are brought forward for the present to deal with???

I wonder if you have met CZA. You are practically neighbors; both interested in the impeachment of the president; I don't know if she is a PETA member of supporter but wouldn't be at all surprised if she is. Al Gore won't make it in '08 UNLESS he drops those stupid handlers who made him look like a wooden indian in the last election! He really is personable and funny and bright but has to present himself reasonably! I think you and CZA could be great friends!

I have no objection whatsoever to impeachment proceedings against the president but nobody has seen fit to try it yet. They may in the end the only way to clear the smoke and clean the mirrors.

FRYEXELL you might want a flack jacket and helmet if you have actual opinions here! I am not so certain it is a hobby so much as an obsession. But it certainly is an exercise for the gray matter our doctors all want us to find. The hard part is the 'suffering fools gladly' which is really more difficult than it sounds.

COLORME "Well I for one, sure would like to know then, what exactly it is that they WILL be doing. If they are managing the ports, but not loading, unloading or handling security, WHAT is their role?"

Very good question and I think we are all waiting for the answers!!!!

JOHNNYSACK a good share of the gentlemen here are septagenarians.

DERF we better hope the UAE are truly our friends because if we do quash this deal they might just cancel their Boeing contract and drop $10 BILLION and put a lot of people out of work in this country. They can always go to France instead.

Comprehensive and well thought out post! Good job! Thankyou for making the commitment to post it!

BOBBYGEE "Please. "mob with pitchforks and machetes" is just a figure of speech. Your parsing the image. "

As soon as you mention pitchforks you are stepping on the farming community. I love pitchforks and can't use one anymore - a great personal tragedy in my life! So many people in this country use a pitchfork on a daily basis. Machetes on the other hand - who uses them??? Sorry to stick a hole in your image - four holes? I found it objectionable.

CZA I am going to guess you are confused by the term "tower" but there most certainly was a building #5 in the World Trade Center. You thought there were only two???? And you a New Yorker! #5 whatever-you-choose-to-call it was buried under the towers! Fortunately the Deuchebank employees evacuated after the planes hit and before the buildings fell. They didn't have any place to go but they got away. The other buildings were frequently referred to as 'towers' despite their architectural configurations. Funny how those individuals working in the building referred to it that way. So I guess we can figure that the firm you slave for was not in the WTC.

CZA and yet again here you are contributing NOTHING to the topic whatsoever! Again your sole purpose for being here is to bash other people. You should take some serious cues from JZ88 who shares all of your political proclivities but seems to know how to post on a blog.


JZ88 - "... should be installed as the new contractor without including our elected officials (and I mean congressmen and senators here) in the discussion."

I AGREE COMPLETELY WITH THIS!

"One more thing: the fact that the current lease was signed in 2000 does not mean it did not EXIST before 2000"

CZA finally an actual point and probably a good one. Now if you would be so kind as to tell us which president did in fact create this situation we would all appreciate the contribution.

Your clear indication is that Clinton worked within its confines his entire 8 years and never once questioned it!

By the way that date of 2000 was from your post of the Yahoo item.

As for JFK vs Logan - well we all make mistakes. But then you don't know the building count on the WTC. details details details. I have flown thru both airports several times and should I need to again I will know one from the other.

"I don't particularly care for name-calling either"

CZA ROFL! baawk bawk bawk bawk

VIP excellent post!

"The security protocol is our country's best effort to determine the facts, but some who still feel uneasy want Congress to take a shot, or to just reject the contract out of hand."

Despite all the posturing and pouting Congress is not going to do anything out of hand. They will get the information they need and take it from there.

I think many Americans are leaning on their representatives already so there is no possibility this will be set aside without due consideration of all the factors.

The President is taking the only position he can as the leader of this country. He has international diplomatic considerations weighing in heavily. It would be kewl to know what he is thinking! and saying behind closed doors!But we aren't going to get that!

"that control of the operation of many if not most of our American ports is in the hands of foreigners."

IF we are getting the facts there are 360 ports and 1/3 have these foreign contracts. 50% of the ports on the east coast, nearly 100% on the west. Of course we see the "facts" changing day to day in this!

"There are some extreme twist-meisters on this blog, who are compelled to back anything and everything George W. Bush and his Administration tells us is "good for Americans"."

MTMAN this is entirely true but there are also extreme twist-meisters on this blog who are compelled to slam anything and everything George W. Bush and his Adminsitration tells us as "bad for Americans"

"I'm still someone very concerned that any foreign entity" -

Same here and the more I read the more convinced I am that this has to be stopped!

"BTW, NASCAR is a sport where the drivers are constantly turning their steering wheels to the left. It is also the most popular spectator sport in the land. What does that say about our country? (asked by someone who watches NASCAR regularly and is a big fan of the 24 car)"

WE NEED THE DIVERSION! No politics. Just racing. If the political parties pick up sponsorships for 08 they will have to run without me watching! Something has to maintain its sacred status!

PAUL "She's not real! She's a construct of some of your right-wing friends."

absolutley she is a construct and mtman has joined us. I think, however, that this is a staffer.

The question is then, however, who is the rightwing construct being put up by a leftwinger or the same staffer for the same purpose? There certainly are a couple of prime candidates!

Perry I will spare the redlining of your posts but I will tell you there are 14 fundamental errors in your symantics. And there are no fewer than 69 errors in spelling, punctuation, capitalization etc.

If you aren't a construct you are in the 7th grade and failing English.

semantics - sigh. long day.

CZA JUST GIVE IT UP!!!! You wrote:

"...erroneous information (when they believe they are "educating" bloggers), as in a post referring to Tower #5 !!!! There NEVER was such a thing! "

READ:


"The Trade Center was never designed for the amount of emergency power necessary for all those trading floors they have there," Calabro said. "Tenants would come in and need emergency power, and it was not available."

To solve that problem, E-J Electric set four generators on the roof of Tower 5, which was nine stories, as opposed to the 110-story Towers 1 and 2. E-J then ran high-voltage feeder cable to Towers 1, 2, 4 and 5, installed three substations and distributed power to the tenants.

"We pulled 6,000 feet of high-voltage feeder cable from the roof of Tower 5, through the building, down through the concourse, through the parking garages and to the roof of Tower 1 and 2," Calabro said."

baaawck bawck bawck bawck

Well, reading through these, no one has convinced me my opinion should change from postings under previous topic.

Have a great weekend, everyone!

PS> Welcome, new posters!

This thread is going incredibly well and it is really great to see so many new names here! WOW.

On the subject of 'name-calling' - I admit to having from time to time lowered myself to use the occasional epithet which is not only rude, it is entirely unnecessary because those individuals engendering disparaging comment don't need anyone's help.

The general rule of thumb - does anyone type with their thumbs? -is that when directly addressed it's fair game to fire back.

However, the blog just is such a better place when we can stick to discussing the topic - even as it evolves.

Well, well. At the rate I'm going I'll never catch Weirdflower and DrD. Three whole days this topic's been up and look at all the messages!

I'd like to welcome all the new blood. Think you'll find that most people welcoming you are just welcoming you. But y'all might wanna keep your guard up against those who like to play "butter up the newbie." It must be a sport. Either that or they think this blog is a recruiting ground. It's actually kinda fun to watch.

On to the topic. Last straw? Hardly. Have to agree with mtngoat that no foreign entities should be running our ports. But the cat's already out of the bag. A little late to try to stuff it back in, don't ya think? UAE doesn't bother me. I've got nothing against them.

Impeach this! Impeach that! Big deal. Bring it on. We could use some more government sponsered entertainment. This country has impeached 2 Presidents and neither one was removed from office. One even got his face on our money.

Spider, some reason you feel you need to change your opinions? Or are you just actually willing to give credence to other points of view? That would be a rarity. Too many people confuse open minds with empty ones.

I feel I must (ok not must, just want to) give my opinion on the issue of name-calling. I give nicknames to lots of people, on and off this blog. So not all of my name-calling is derogatory. I leave it to y'all to decode my acidic tendencies.

Must comment on the interesting "spin" of facts on this blog... yes, contracts written in 2000 can still be in force, HOWEVER, this PARTICULAR contract referenced in the ports controversy was executed with a different company, from a different country, at a very different time in history. There's an old saying in legal circles... that "contracts are made to be broken!" and this is certainly an example of one breakable for good reason... For a British company to be able to sell our interests to another company, without any oversight by our government is simply ludicrous!!! Imagine if, during the 60s, a British port regulating company decided to sell its contract to the USSR... would we just have said "sure"???
This new climate of politico-fascism has put us in a very dangerous place... business should never govern, and people who govern should be totally divorced from business dealings... the current administration ran on the "we're going to run this government like a business" platform in 2000... THEY LOST... but were installed by cronies... and "sure as shootin'" they're running our government just like GWB ran most of his other businesses... INTO THE GROUND!!! (The man couldn't even make a BASEBALL TEAM a success!!!)
Unfortunately, He won't use his backroom buddies from the Saudi royal family or his oil-rich buddies to bail him out this time... they've actually made it appear as if there is progress in our economy... but we know better... as we are all experiencing, those buddies are reaping record profits while the middle class and poor people in this nation have faltering education, sky-high energy expenses, non-existent medical care, and a government that could care less if every industry is outsourced to another country today, so that our grandchildren's grandchildren can be subservient to huge debt-service deficits long after these people become footnotes in some dusty history book...
Problem is, some of us have caught on to the scam... FINALLY... now let's hope the groundswell will move the rudder on this ship toward a more benificial course for this nation... before it is too late, and we hit that proverbial ice berg!!!

After doing a some reading on this port issue I've come to the conclusion that the "last straw" is being carried away by the wind generated by so much political flatulence. It has been termed by one talk show host as the "perfect panic" ( The Perfect Storm) affecting the usual politicos with the added boat-rocking of some Republicans, the 'sky is falling' media and the knee jerk public, many hoping that Bush finally met his Waterloo. The left-wing liberals seemed more active than usual in their howls for impeachment as they readied a tumbril to haul Bush before the Congress for his beheading.

Not to be. Another issue without impetus. The facts are slowly emerging and slowly sinking into even the thick skulls of Democrats and stiffening the spines of weak Republicans.

The port brouhaha is nothing more than the consequences of globalization that began in earnest in the mid 90's. The question here is not whether or not globalization is good or bad. It is a fait accompli and an economic force that cannot be altered with fits and starts whenever it demonstrates a downside. Were it not for 9/11, obviously unforeseen in the sis boom bah, rah, rah, rah of the 'go get 'em' buck chasing greed of the 90's, the port issue would have drawn scant attention. As we snored away and let foreign management expertise gain the upper hand in many things formerly reserved for American interests, labor unions and government did little to oppose foreign influence. We loved the globalization get rich quick scheme when it fattened our stock portfolios and promised more to come.

Enter 9/11. Now we want to reverse globalization because we don't like and are afraid of a high roller. Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. There's a price to be paid for management ineptitude in a significant industry. The smarter, the stronger and the more politically adept have outmanuevered the institutions of labor and government.

We really have little choice but to accept the UAE as a partner in the new world economy or face ridicule for backing of from a cause we championed and increasing political enmity in Arab countries. We may jeapardize our security interests more by failing to allow this sale to be consummated than by falling into the "perfect panic" reactionary mode of the fear mongers.

jk88 I am not convinced that very many people in the White House have gotten beyond considering the state of the Rose Garden to be the state of the nation. Has there been a two term presidency that didn't run amuck before being put out of its misery? Maybe we need a single 6 year term.

"business should never govern, and people who govern should be totally divorced from business dealings..."

There is nobody more out of touch with the common man than a multi-term senator/congressman! How many fatcat wealthy men are in Congress? We all know about Kerry's five homes but he isn't the only one. People in my state are shocked to know Feingold had a home in Illinois because he campaigned on a platform of average joe. Very few people in this state have enough assetts to justify taking a divorce to trial. It would be interesting to know how many of those vocal critics of Haliburton own stock! Michael Moore did and sold at a dandy profit. I wonder if he went right back in and tripled his money.

At the same time middle class people can't afford to mount the gazillion dollar campaigns.

Dick Lamb, much unfairly maligned politician in Colorado, launched his bid for the governorship right after the previous election by walking thru the state for four years knocking on every door. It worked. Now I don't know what he lived on in the meantime...

"GWB ran most of his other businesses... INTO THE GROUND!!! "

This is the antithesis of most of posts we see here by his critics!

I happen to support the President but there are some serious problems in his cabinet, way too much trust in any and all allies, way too much cooperation with the Un-United Nations.

There have been entirely good people flimflammed by those ever-present sycophants. And I don't necessarily throw in the "birds of a feather" though I am still conflicted over our tattooed bridesmaid!

Whether you support or reject this president the whole thing is getting painful.

uk, now ive reuaaly had it ! You caN ackuse me of many manny things but I wil nott stand for being accussed of being a dirty rightt-wing nazzi like BobbyGEE, Anmd wrldfuwer youre no better thenpaul and mtnsheepman whun you praise mthsheepman fdor geting outof his sheppshearingfshed, orwhatever it is heduz to tham sheppv upv therecin those cold New mexjoco mountains. Bobbygee is theworst think ytou can call me. I'm a treacher ! I'm the best the NEA hass tou offer ! I'maunion perp with an IQ of 1.45 and a berkuley grad. BobbyGee is anignorant toul of the republikans.

I'm returningmy invittation to your sheepherders reujniun on Bare Back Mount'em and youallcun jes do as you pleeze up trherwe. And doan thing I doan knew what yur ding. Montego will be watcjing from the blimp and the NSA will be listening toyur bleats of extasy.

(Perry is ill and indisposed and asked that I write this for her. Gee it's fun 'coming out' and being the dummy. I get to act like paul, nutman and uncogito and a host of others ! )

You may be correct Ace but that is not why it happened in the first place. And how many married men would have admitted they were having an affair ? The republican party spent eight years and a great deal of taxpayers money trying to get even. Instead of doing the job they were elected to do.
You are an english teacher perry ? That's scarry .

<<Spider, some reason you feel you need to change your opinions? Or are you just actually willing to give credence to other points of view? That would be a rarity. Too many people confuse open minds with empty ones.>>Posted by: UntamedShrew on Feb 25, 06 | 10:26 am


:)

No amount of collusion between any number of branches of any government at any level has the authority to do otherwise:

"Article the sixth [Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


American citizen and no warrant? Illegal. Probable cause is not a fishnet.

American Jurisprudence states that anything that contradicts the Constitution is illegal. (Is it Hamilton who said that?) When anyone finds an exception to this rule, let me know. In the meantime, think "concept of written law".

However, there is the Amendment Process. The blessed mechanism by which this living, breathing documented, protected by my hand and others (you know who you are), is kept alive.


"Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate [Possibly abrogated by Amendment XVII]."

really BOBBYGEE - Gross and Disgusting!!! and TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR. I do like the 1.45 IQ though.

COGITO nobody was trying to get even for anything.

"an affair" - let's call it what it is - Adultery. Of course that is only a truly serious thing for those who think there are actual facts in the Bible. Those men who believe in facts think adultery can destroy you mind, body and soul. Those who don't believe there are Biblical facts can just be destroyed by the divorce lawyers which might do the same thing come to think of it.

Nobody spent 8 years trying to do anything to Clinton. Bill made his own mistakes the same way every president does. He didn't need any help.

"American citizen and no warrant? Illegal."

Fine 5p1der - how many AMERICAN CITIZENS were surveilled ? Why do we assume there are hoards of American Citizens in protracted exchanges with known terrorist operatives in other countries?

BOBBYGEE I don't know how "perry" could have had the invitation all wrong. It wasn't to a sheepherders reunion at all! Good grief, it was just the first annual not-getting-together of the Cold and Ugly Hearts Club. HOW DO THESE THINGS GET SO MIXED UP?

and to my knowledge the only actual sheepherder on the blog is me.

Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 12:57 pm

It would be a travesty of our Constitution if the 3 men in Ohio were busted as a result of illegal wire tapping. Wonder if they swore allegiance to the Flag? (The traitors or the tappers.) Letting Traitors go on a technicality seems rather stupid to me. I guess we'll see.




This ports thing...in conjunction with the Southern Sieve...I'm still rather speechless that the British had control in the first place. "Hey, 5p1der, while you were out reading the Constitution, there was real national subversion going on the whole time!"

Fair trade is one thing. That is when we welcome you to our country to trade goods and services at a fair price.

Now, borders and ports in which foreign nationals both stream accross unaccounted AND control the point of entry...that sounds like making copies then giving the keys to my house to anyone who has $5. That also rather sounds like a stupid thing to do.

<<Fine 5p1der - how many AMERICAN CITIZENS were surveilled ? Why do we assume there are hoards of American Citizens in protracted exchanges with known terrorist operatives in other countries? >>Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 25, 06 | 1:15 pm


I'm not exactly sure WldFlwr, FBI agents have said they were overwhelmed with fairy tales, though.

We're a tad off topic here... but I'll join in...

GWB HIMSELF spoke (scripted, of course) that there would be no snooping on Americans without due process... he said it clearly in February 2004... Has he betrayed all of you who voted for him? I think so... I did not vote for him... proud to shout that fact... and if his undoing is his own word, so be it...
Case in point... none of Spider's remedies (amending the constitution) have been proposed so far... so the law as it stands is STILL the law...

Frankly, where are all of these terrorists that have been surveiled, and caught as a result? In more than FIVE YEARS, what's the count? How much is it costing the American people per arrest? Better still, how much is it costing per CONVICTION?

Has he kept us "safer"? Safer than what? As I recall, the only terrorist attack on US soil during the Clinton administration did not cost 3,000 lives, and was not followed up by an illegal war which was forced down our throats by the use of "faulty intelligence"... better known in legal circles as LIES...
Clinton's second term was marred not by huge deficits, the selling of American jobs and careers abroad, and killing of thousands of innocent civilians in a non-hostile country... it was marred by the few who thought being involved in a president's private life was appropriate... The American people were right on when poll after poll gave Clinton positive approval ratings re his job performance... Not so here... This president left the poor people of New Orleans stranded and dying on rooftops while he went to a birthday party/fund raiser with John McCain... and then had the NERVE to say that no one had any idea... I'll bet there are plenty of people on this loop who were watching CNN and purportedly knew more than the president did!!! What a NIGHTMARE!!!

In conclusion, the port issue is not a "tempest in a teapot" but is rather the peeling away of layer upon layer of garbage that has been dumped on an unwitting American people... suddenly we've got goose-step Republicans asking for answers... and you know that means their constituents are speakng up... We are now realizing that globalization needs to be stepped back... because small groups are reaping enormous profits at the expense of the American way of life... because when we do not control our own ports, we're inviting disaster... and when that disaster strikes, do we blame the company from abroad who didn't give a rat's you-know-what... or do we blame an administration trying to fatten their friends wallets, while painting the "everything's fine" guise... Sounds like they're building a house of cards here... and that house of cards is in real jeopardy of tumbling... and very soon indeed!!!

<<<<Fine 5p1der - how many AMERICAN CITIZENS were surveilled ? Why do we assume there are hoards of American Citizens in protracted exchanges with known terrorist operatives in other countries? >>Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 25, 06 | 1:15 pm


I'm not exactly sure WldFlwr, FBI agents have said they were overwhelmed with fairy tales, though.>>Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 1:41 pm


I think that OBL's henchmen might even get a telemarketer auto-dialer or two and start calling random numbers in the united states, send whatever recorded message they want--even of george bush praising our troops in a 'personal message just for you' just to keep people on the line.

Ever heard of a computer virus? How do you know your comp hasn't been hijacked for illicit reasons? By a virus or any other malware program that hasn't been discovered yet? Heck, even has been discovered, only modified!

You want intrusion into our lives for those reasons, go ahead. Just remember that noone gets to just agree my or my family's rights away. There is a vehicle for change, please use it.

"Letting Traitors go on a technicality seems rather stupid to me."

5pider there is no such thing as treason in our national vocabulary. I don't know just where it went or when but it's gone.

The security of our ports is being conducted by us. So if we have people streaming across unchecked we are at fault. And supposedly the workers in the ports are still us.

BUT THAT BEGS THE QUESTION -exactly what is it P&O has been doing?

I'm not exactly sure WldFlwr," me neither and when push comes to shove we are going to be told everything is classified so they can't tell us! The Onion recently did a riotous story on how it was recently discovered that the government was accidentally using black highlighters!

Last night I saw a report on whole systems of federal documents being destroyed and the only possible exploration is that people are rewriting history!

I think Forrest Gump was a horror movie that should have sent shudders thru us - there was a dead president speaking lines put into his mouth with a computer! Talk about rewriting history! We could have Hitler suggesting Israel.

This is all more than disturbing. John Paul said we are in the Tribulation so we may just as well buckle in for the ride.

But while doing so we better give some serious consideration to NOVEMBER!

My state has an Attorney General who gave herself reprimands and fines when she was arrested for drunk driving. THEN we found out she has wrecked five state cars. She's still in office! The fox is in the chicken coop here!

Leave trade alone. It is the sole Agent of Freedom and Democracy.

Foreign nationals streaming in and in control of our ports...that is not trade.

not exploration -- EXPLANATION

<<Foreign nationals streaming in and in control of our ports...that is not trade.>>Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 2:10 pm


Giving it the guise of trade is how we have all been duped.

"Foreign nationals..... in control of our ports...that is not trade."

has anyone in the government said this is about trade or is that a media hype? It's getting lost in the noise.

"Ever heard of a computer virus? How do you know your comp hasn't been hijacked for illicit reasons? By a virus or any other malware program that hasn't been discovered yet? Heck, even has been discovered, only modified!"

well now if you get that paranoid 5pider you will have to throw out the computer. We have to trust Symantec etc. who are 24/7 on top of these things.

Okay now and then they are caught offguard -I was online when Bugbear walked right thru the firewall! But they had the fix in 10 hours.

But anyone who does not run a top notch security system with a firewall AND a good spyware detector as well is asking for problems. Ad-Aware updates definitions about every two weeks.

One disturbing trend - the bad guys all over the globe have worked some magic with the Symantec firewall so it cues when there is an attempt to get into the computer but they also say "recommend always allow". I did URL checks - Moscow, Taipei, Caracas...I don't think so. So THE NEXT STEP is that the XP FIREWALL will block most of those that Norton misses. But this week there have been a few more coming in and I have to remember to hit "block always".

I don't think the Al-Q guys have all this much brilliance. They are operating on the run and that impairs everything. We have caught a few key people with their computers.

are the feds listenig in? well just in case you could always say hello to the friendly agents..

Good point about Forrest Gump... scary thought is that the Kerry-Bush debate on September 30, 2004 looked like a "sort of" live version... remember the rectangular bulge in GWB's coat that to this day has not been explained?

Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 25, 06 | 2:24 pm

Trust me, in my line of work (how I come to do business in the EMEA region), computer and network security are a major concern. As anyone knows, the only secure network, is one that is not connected. And that rather defeats the purpose.

As for anyone having firewall issues: it is a bad idea to have your firewall on the same computer that you use for daily things. Better than nothing, but you are better off with a device desinged for doing it. Any of the cable or dsl routers out there should be plenty. As for antivirus, AVG makes a very good one that is free for personal home use. I have run it for many years with no problems (now, spyware, that is another issue. the 5p1der-lings like their 'free' internet games, Mrs. 5p1der likes the coupons and...)

There are a lot of smarter people than I that work on computer security. That still does not prevent companies from having numbers, accounts, and identities from being stolen.

JZ88 we get way off topic here on a regular basis. Most topics are chewed up and spit out within 3 days. The real challenge is to keep from chewing on each other but that happens far too frequently.

"GWB HIMSELF spoke (scripted, of course) that there would be no snooping on Americans without due process... he said it clearly in February 2004... Has he betrayed all of you who voted for him?"

Well first of all presidents speak from scripts. They never go off-the-cuff. Some of Bush's writers need to be fired lke the moron who used the word "campaign" relative to Iraq.

"no snooping on Americans" I think this is a semantic game and the implication is that no actual American Citizens are being wiretapped. It's all very slippery slope!

"Frankly, where are all of these terrorists that have been surveiled, and caught as a result? In more than FIVE YEARS, what's the count? How much is it costing the American people per arrest? Better still, how much is it costing per CONVICTION?"

EXCELLENT QUESTIONS. answers are I don't know. I don't know and I don't know....

"Clinton's second term was marred not by huge deficits,"

well you can't run illegal wars without huge deficits.

" it was marred by the few who thought being involved in a president's private life was appropriate"

It is clearly understood and always has been that a President has no private life for those 4 to 8 years he is in office. JFK managed privacy only because he didn't have all this "freedom of the press" nonsense to deal with. The press during the JFK years had freedom but also a restrictive sense of decency that is just lost.

Anyone who wants privacy should just not run for high office. Do I think this is right? NO but that's how it is.

The president doesn't have negative approval ratings. And a second term president doesn't need any approval rating. He's on his way out. Either way Bill Clinton is charismatic and people don't seem to care what he does right or wrong, they just like him.

"This president left the poor people of New Orleans stranded and dying on rooftops while he went to a birthday party/fund raiser..."

And he could have done what that would have gotten the people off those rooftops? The BIG QUESTION is what the president knew and when he knew it and frankly - having seen the NBC interview with "Brownie" talking about a conference call in which he said...blah blah blah.- I DO NOT BELIEVE MR. BROWN FOR A MINUTE! We all know that during the hurricane he was blathering in emails about how neat he looked in his FEMA clothes! This is America and we can't take Brownie out with the firing squad or send him quail hunting in Texas. I don't know what Chertoff did or didn't know. And they were the people charged with informing the President in a timely and ACCURATE MANNER!

Clearly the president didn't personally read the drill reports from the year before that now read like news bylines. Nor did he see the National Georgraphic video referring to this as The Doomsday Scenario. But a president is not charged with micromanaging the country. He has to trust his staff. Clearly they let things drop.

However, emergency management is the states' prerogative. Everyone in the scientific community has know for decades what would happen in New Orleans so why was there no viable evacuation plan at the state level?

The written emergency/evac plan for the city of New Orleans is online. It look great! But the emergency workers charged with effecting it all high-tailed it out of town in their cars instead of staying to drive buses etc.

"unwitting American people..." WHO pay good money to be represented in the House and the Senate and neither party saw fit to be on top of this! Is anyone doing their job in D.C.?

"we do not control our own ports, we're inviting disaster... "

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!!!

<<As for antivirus, AVG makes a very good one that is free for personal home use.>>Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 3:01 pm

Not only is the program free, it includes recurring updates, that is, no subscriptions to pay for either.


If you are a dial-up modem user, your best firewall is to remember to log off. And if you do get a router, make sure you change the default passwords.

JZ88 " the Kerry-Bush debate on September 30, 2004"

The truly amazing thing about this event was the way everyone saw something entirely the opposite depending on their polarization. Republican leaning people clearly saw that the President won. Democratic leaning people clearly saw that Kerry won.

<<(now, spyware, that is another issue. the 5p1der-lings like their 'free' internet games, Mrs. 5p1der likes the coupons and...)>>Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 3:01 pm


Ad-aware is good, spybot is better (but can be complex), IMO.

had AVG on, ran some test scans on it - admittedly by the competitors -and they came out "swiss cheese". So I stick with Norton. I do have experience with McAfee and their firewall repeatedly let KLEZ thru.

if you log off repeatedly you have to be careful to make certain when you log back on that all security programs are running.

"campaign" CRUSADE in the speech

Not to get anyone's panties in a bunch, but does anyone know if their reps use a blackberry? Maybe this doesn't mean anything...


They are made in Canada. I use one. I notice my internet traffic, like when I go to google, tells me I am routing through canada--which is surprising due to the companies i recieve data through are supposed to be US based companies. That is fine with me: Free trade afterall.

But, does anyone know if our national security council et al are using theirs to send national security information? Just curious.

Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 25, 06 | 3:17 pm

Every anti-virus program I know of will report any other as bad news.

well that makes perfect sense!

"does anyone know if our national security council et al are using theirs to send national security information? Just curious"

theoretically they are using secure systems not public systems. The miliary doesn't use commercial. All that emailing you hear about from troops - the military provides its own servers and service and all members and their families can have the secure email accounts. Hotmail and Yahoo are discouraged.

This country has impeached 2 Presidents and neither one was removed from office. One even got his face on our money.
Posted by: UntamedShrew on Feb 25, 06 | 10:26 am

Shrew:
Wasn't President Johnson (the one after Lincoln) also impeached by Congress?

Boy that took a half hour just to catch up.

I thought derf had a great post at Posted by: derf on Feb 24, 06 | 5:40 pm


welcome new bloggers...

Planet's Population to Hit 6.5 Billion Saturday Leonard David
LiveScience Senior Writer
LiveScience.com
Fri Feb 24, 2:04 PM ET



A population milestone is about to be set on this jam-packed planet.


On Saturday, Feb. 25, at 7:16 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, the population here on this good Earth is projected to hit 6.5 billion people.


Along with this forecast, an analysis by the International Programs Center at the U.S. Census Bureau points to another factoid, Robert Bernstein of the Bureau's Public Information Center advised LiveScience. Mark this on your calendar: Some six years from now, on Oct. 18, 2012 at 4:36 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time, the Earth will be home to 7 billion folks.


Happy Birthday

and so Ace we need more tsunamis? 7.5 earthquakes? What if New Orleans is ever hit directly with a Level #5 Hurricane?

and all this while in America the best farmland is being gobbled up by the thousands of acres for subdivisions and nobody has a clue where the food is going to come from!

very dire proposition indeed.

Happy birthday? OKAY

Happy Birthday to you
Happy Birthday to you
Happy Birthday dear............
Happy Birthday to you!

a little off topic but... http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/8/82ND_AIRBORNE_GAY_PORN?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-02-24-17-59-26

Don't Ask... Don't Tell... & Don't bugger each other on the Internet while you are still on active duty...

And people wonder why the military establishment would rather not have gays around?

What a bunch of stupid....

Send your appreciation and thanks to one Bill Clinton ... everybody's good ol' boy ... with emphasis on "boy".

Way to dishonor your country for a few bucks (please note the "b").

Clearly this is Bush's fault.

Nauseating.

Your posts regarding the ports are right on Wldflower... keep up the good work.

"But, does anyone know if our national security council et al are using theirs to send national security information? Just curious.

Posted by: 5p1der on Feb 25, 06 | 3:23 pm"

5p1der - from reading articles in TIME - you know, the magazine that allegedly sponsors this blog - I clearly recall that Karl Rove is constantly using his Blackberry. I believe Blackberries are "de rigueur" for most corporate executives these days, and I'm fairly certain that they are used extensively by government officials.

Ace, Of the 6.5 billion folk on this blue ball. 5 billion have never got or made a phone call. Although 6 billion have heard of the United States and they want to come here. Right now.

And all the while, we have vile politicians and leaders of certain Churches say "why not let everyone come".

"Gee it's fun 'coming out' and being the dummy... Posted by: BobbyGee on Feb 25, 06 | 11:55 am"

Actually, BobbyGee, you're a natural at it! And your name-calling is straight from the 4th grade, too...

I found my way back... The girl scouts are out delivering their cookies today. My those girls are sweet. Thank you for the kind words. I need to figure out how to save this screen. My friend’s grandson told me then I could come to the site automatically. Well, that is what I am attempting this afternoon. bye, Shirley

Hi Swoflea, where have you been the past couple of days? posting on the DU site again?

WHO WHAT:

In 1993, in response to a sense of Congress resolution, CFIUS membership was expanded by Executive Order 12860 to include the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs and the Assistant to the President for Economic Policy. In February 2003, the Department of Homeland Security was added to CFIUS. This brought the membership of CFIUS to twelve under the chairmanship of the Secretary of Treasury. The other members are the Secretaries of State, Defense, and Commerce, the Attorney General, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget, the U.S. Trade Representative, and the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers.

Regulations. The Exon-Florio provision requested that the President issue implementing regulations. These regulations were issued in 1991. They set up a voluntary system of notification with the possibility of CFIUS member-agency notice for non-notified transactions. The President retains full authority to protect the national security with respect to any acquisition covered by this statute, regardless of whether the parties file a notification.

The Exon-Florio regulations do not define national security. The preamble to the regulations provides guidance that products, services and technologies important to U.S. defense requirements would be significant to national security. Even though notification is voluntary, CFIUS would consider notification of these transactions appropriate.

Code of Federal Regulations Citation. Office of International Investment, Department of Treasury -- Regulations pertaining to mergers, acquisitions, and takeovers by foreign persons, 31 CFR Part 800.

Procedures. Treasury, acting at the staff level through the Director of the Office of International Investment in the Office of the Assistant Secretary of International Affairs, acts as the secretariat for CFIUS. It receives and circulates notices to CFIUS agencies and coordinates reviews. Reviews are conducted on a case-by-case basis.

The Exon-Florio statute established a 30-day review following receipt of a notification. For those transactions for which an extended 45-day review (or "investigation") is completed, a report must be provided to the President, who must by law announce the final decision within 15 days. In total, the process can not exceed 90 days. The statute requires the President to inform Congress of his determination of whether or not to take action under section 721.

"leaders of certain Churches say "why not let everyone come".

SWO that is not at all what my church is saying. They are saying we need to be humanitarians and respect human needs. And they run missions all over the globe with schools and training centers helping people to help themselves.

Factual clarification.... ONLY 2 presidents were ever impeached... that means indictments were drawn... NEITHER was convicted... that is, removed from office... and both impeachments have gone done in history as "political witch hunts"...

Wldflwr, you seem to be giving the federal government a pass on the Katrina debacle... why? After 911, this administration spent the next 3+ year touting how prepared they are for a disaster... and how inept the other side would be, should that disaster occur... It didn't take a terrorist attack to show how full-of-it they were... and if you're watching the Mardi Gras celebrations, you can see with your own eyes how they still haven't come to the plate!!! (For those of you who'd like to blame BOTH sides for the Katrina mess, keep in mind that the GOP has total control over bringing ANY legislation to the floor in both HOUSE and SENATE, has majorities in both bodies that can easily shove through any kind of disaster or relief bill, and the GOP has the man at the top who could easily sign the check written in the dead of night... just as they all scampered back to attempt to legislate the Terri Schiavo incident!!!)

Just another aside... when the terrorist attacks took place, the administration took all of the credit for brilliantly handling the recovery operations, yet
1] we NYers were LIED to, told that the air around Ground Zero was safe to breathe (and now hundreds of our first responders have chronic conditions from the airborne asbestos etc)
2] Much of the money earmarked for enhancing security in these prime target areas has been redirected to porkbarrel projects in places where terrorists wouldn't even be caught sending Blackberry messages...
3] The "take charge" people didn't have a clue... perhaps August is an excellent time to plan a catastrophe, natural or otherwise, as these people seem to treat August as their own personal sabatical at our expense!!!
and
4] Where once the great World Trade Center towers stood, STILL there is a HOLE... and STILL there is bickering as to when that HOLE will once again be home to great commerce and development... for sure, the smiling snake-oil salesman will be there to do his little vaudeville smile and wink when the stage is set for him (a la aircraft carrier "Mission Accomplished")!!!

Fryxell If you are running a Microsoft system go to the top left of the page. Click on "File". Go down to "Send" and click on it. From there go to "Shortcut to Desktop". That will put an icon on your computer screen you can just click on to get here. If you aren't running Microsoft I have no clue how to do it.

we NYers were LIED toPosted by: jz88keys on Feb 25, 06 | 5:17 pm


Well you were the clowns that elected that ass-hat Hillary... oh wait, I forgot. She was out-state too busy running for President.

No wonder the President didn't know anything about the UAE deal. It seems several under-secretaries met to hash it over, and one - from the Dept. of Homeland Security - had objections to it. For more on this, check out

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PORTS_SECURITY?SITE=TXCN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

jz88keys - you said "1] we NYers were LIED to, told that the air around Ground Zero was safe to breathe (and now hundreds of our first responders have chronic conditions from the airborne asbestos etc)" - in fact, some of these people have already perished from their exposure.

I worked for 6 weeks fighting the large wildfire (started as a controlled burn by the US Park Service) that ended up burning more than 50,000 acres, 400 homes, and parts of the Los Alamos National Laboratory here in northern New Mexico in May and June, 2000. There were lots of questions as to the safety of the firefighters as we had to work in canyons - know here as arroyos - where it was quite possible nuclear and other waste was dumped back in the 40's and 50's. Some firefighting teams left during the rehab as they felt they were being exposed to dangerous sites. We were all told that the US Government's Dept. of Energy would keep us informed through a website about any potential health risks we encountered. Guess what? Within a couple of weeks after the fire the website was shut down. It is not uncommon for the Federal Govt. to underestimate the imapct of disasters on the health, safety, and well-being of it's citizens.

The West wants the middle east to grow up and join the world. Once a company exists that has, we should not turn away. EDIT: If we do otherwise, we're phonies, and we provide no way for them to change. Then we get eternal jihad.

Ace,
In typical fashion, you clowns think that changing the subject cancels out the point being made. What does Hillary have to do with electing Bush? Why don't you just bring up Ted Kennedy again or Clinton's impeachment? Oh wait, that's unpoor's line. I guess yours is simply Hillary.

Jz88keys, you will find that the truth rarely matters to some of these bloggers, they, like Bush, have their own reality.

Ace-hole (since you like the nicknames BobbyGee hands out, you get one now too)- since when do Senators have anything to do with determining when and what the public is told regarding air safety? This information and jurisdiction is 100% under the control of the Executive Branch, specifically the EPA.

Don Knotts died today.

Boy you liberals are full of hate today... (and full of yourselves) the only thing both of you... goat-man and stink-mom (or swim-moron) forgot was to blame Bush... oh wait, stink-mom covered her large rear on that... but nutman has yet to blame Bush... today.

There that better now? Feeling the love? I am not as practiced at attacks as blog experts like you, but I am willing to learn.

One of the best Barney Fife centered episodes of Andy Griffith was the one where he confronts a couple of big guys selling veggies illegally at the side of the road, and realizes eventually what a badge is all about.

Why is it when YOU do the name calling and we call you on it- WE'RE the ones full of hate?????

I certainly did no name-calling to warrant being called both stink-mom and swim-moron.

If you want to see full of hate, just look at yourself, ace.

JZ88 I was typing a comprehensive reply to your post and hit the wrong thing and lost the whole thing. Sigh, [which was decidedly not the initial utterance!] ...So I am going to have a banana and a cup of coffee and start over. So I am not ignoring you....just fumbling around here.

MTMAN "It is not uncommon for the Federal Govt. to underestimate the imapct of disasters on the health, safety, and well-being of it's citizens."

Agreed that on a federal job like a fire they are responsible but why is it otherwise the feds' responsibility? Where is the state? The County? The city? The township?

<<5p1der - from reading articles in TIME - you know, the magazine that allegedly sponsors this blog - I clearly recall that Karl Rove is constantly using his Blackberry. I believe Blackberries are "de rigueur" for most corporate executives these days, and I'm fairly certain that they are used extensively by government officials.>>Posted by: mtnman on Feb 25, 06 | 4:57 pm


They are extremely handy tools, as far as I am concerned. Blackberry may wind up having to shutdown its current method of data delivery in lieu of a hotfix because of a patent rights dispute; since all this data (my question being national security data in particular) may possibly be traveling across national borders, how secure can it really be?

I trust it as far as doing business, because then you can at least have a chance to recoup damages in court. But national security? Seems there is proof somewhere that the wrong information in the wrong hands can be worth more than any court settlement.

Though not specifically a shipping port security/management control question, is it a question of proprietary (national) information being sent outside the company (United States) via routes without a need to know?

Hate to blog and run... but I have to respond to the Hillary comment...
Geez... If you can't find something nasty to say, say something nasty about Hillary... truth be told, she's a brilliant woman... and generally speaking, this country cannot yet accept women as leaders in the same way they just accept men matter-of-fact... too bad, because she has excellent leadership qualities, and will make a fine president, if given the opportunity to do so...

Y'know it's much easier to blame Bush for the sorry state of things... and why? Because... well... he's out there doing the dumb things that he's doing!!! Sorry, but you blame the CEO when the company goes belly up... My hubby was a police lieutenant way back when... and when underlings in his command blew it, he was responsible and took the heat... Meanwhile, have we seen ONE official appointed by Bush removed for incompetence? Has anyone paid a price for 911, except for Clinton's man, Tenet, whom they had take the fall for it?
Faulty intelligence precipitating the Iraq invasion? Blame the Brits... Colin Powell takes a whole pile of boloney to the UN... photos and all... nobody does a thing...
Remember Brownie didn't get fired... he resigned... (and wow! did he sing to the congressional hearings people... ) Isn't there ONE of you out there who agrees that heads should be rolling over Katrina... over the NSA spying nightmare... EVEN over the "coverup" that failed following Cheney's accidental shooting of his lawyer friend? If ever there was a "gang" that didn't "shoot straight," THIS IS IT... in so many ways!!!

I'll end by calling myself a name... a bleeding liberal... and us liberals ARE bleeding... we're paying those big profits into the fat accounts of the oil barrens these people protect... My grandchildren's college loans will probably be unaffordable... My tax bill will probably be greater than Cheney's or Bush's, or most of those upper income heroes who profess to care about our country, while they sell it up the river to the highest bidder... Our golden years will tarnish due to insufficient health care...

Many on this loop are saying that the contracts for port management were done years ago... but hold the phone... the congress has the obligation to oversee this change in management, particularly in a case where the country's security is at risk!!!

Where is responsibility? Where is culpability? This is a country of laws... even if we don't vote for the winner, we are obligated to follow those laws... When do our elected representatives, seeing a growing problem, take the reigns themselves... and restore law and order? The bi-partisan knee-jerk on this one tells me that that time has come...

"Wldflwr, you seem to be giving the federal government a pass on the Katrina debacle... why?"

Temporarily I do because we don't know who all the rats were yet. Mr. Brown absolutely! But there are far too many unanswered questions! I believed the president ,and still do, when he stood on that tarmac with Nagin and stated that obviously he was not hearing the truth!!! Being the President of the United States you don't get to stand there and blow fuses and make guesses aloud over which of your trusted sychophants had been lying to you.

After the drill in 04 Nagin made a video to put on all the New Orleans stations to tell the population just how much risk they were living with. It was scheduled to air - after Katrina hit. Why did it sit in a drawer for months on end????

Nothing really got going to help people until the President called in one very savvy cajun general to take charge! Meanwhile Mrs. Blanco was clammering over nobody was going to tell her how to use her troops!

Mississippi suffered horrific damage but they did much better than Louisiana.

The year before $8 MILLION of federal funds were distributed to the gulf states for communications equipment. Florida bought communications equipment. Louisiana can't account for any of the cash.

Do you know why there are still thousands of FEMA trailers sitting empty? (1) federal regulation prohibits setting them up in a flood zone. Well that would pretty much be along the Gulf Coast. (2) towns that have anyone still there don't want the eyesores in their communities and are moving to prevent them from coming in.

There has yet to be a substantive government action - and this is state level where the licensing is - against insurance companies in default! People in Pensacola are still waiting for insurance checks from 2004. And when the storms of 2005 struck many of their structures still had blue plastic for roofs.

It isn't as simple as George went to a party. The whole system broke down.

"After 911, this administration spent the next 3+ year touting how prepared they are for a disaster... and how inept the other side would be, should that disaster occur.."

Well they were touting preparedness for a terrorist attack. EMS crews fully admitted in the Gulf States that they had done disaster drills - for explosions, not for storms. STUPID AS IT IS THEY DIDN'T THINK HURRICANE. And the half-full people will all be saying see? no more terrorist attacks. The half-empty will be looking at the approaching hurricane season.

"... if you're watching the Mardi Gras celebrations, you can see with your own eyes how they still haven't come to the plate!!!"

Denial is part of the human condition. To acknowledge the risk you might have to actually do something like move. It's denial that allows us to get into our automobiles and drive the same stretch of road where a friend was slaughtered last year just trying to get home from work. People live on the San Andreas Fault. 1/3 of the population of New Orleans returned. People live at the base of volcanos. We cannot manage nature. The best we can do is prepare for the the unimagineable but to do that you have to go beyond reason. No government on the face of the earth no matter where people live in disaster zones, is truly prepared for the next big one.

" the GOP has the man at the top who could easily sign the check written in the dead of night."

First you have to get Congress to actually approve it and they did. There were millions upon millions approved. Where is the money hung up? DHS? Is every dime being applied for in triplicate?

".. just as they all scampered back to attempt to legislate the Terri Schiavo incident!!!)"

My take on the Schiavo case is that it was never about Right to Life at all, the legal issue was the definition of marriage in this country. A marriage is two partners - man & woman/ same sex - only the two. It does not include parents!!! Her parents made it a circus and there were too many heat-seeking politicians eager to nose in for their faces on the small screen. This was a husband's prerogative- period. For those who are offended by the fact the man gave up and moved on with someone else - I don't know one loving wife who would tell her husband to do anything else. What the White House did was buy time for a judicial review and they got it and the court supported the husband and that was the end of it. The statement was to the effect that there was no more to be done.

Since Benedict has become Pope the Catholic Church has put out a directive on these things...extraordinary measures are appropriate when they are a means to a healing. If they are only to prolong the death they can be appropriately ended.

And how many people ran right out and signed Advance Directives and appointed someone with their Medical Power of Attorney?

"1] we NYers were LIED to, told that the air around Ground Zero was safe to breathe (and now hundreds of our first responders have chronic conditions from the airborne asbestos etc)"

YES but I really have to say something about this. Who had to be told the air was dangerous???? It was full of glass, cement, paint, metal, asbestos not to mention organic matter. Who could not think this through?

2] Much of the money earmarked for enhancing security in these prime target areas has been redirected to porkbarrel projects in places where terrorists wouldn't even be caught sending Blackberry messages...

OH ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Al-Q isn't going after the sheep in Montana. But this sort of pork-barreling has always been part of the federal scene! In 1962 there were federal funds for microscopes in District R-1 schools in Colorado. Lakewood Junior High has hundreds of students. My junior high had about 70. We got the same number of microscopes for our Science classroom as Lakewood. ???????
No, there is plenty of blame for both parties and always has been.

3] The "take charge" people didn't have a clue...

The human mind does not compute this level of disaster. There is nothing special about our leaders, they just ran for office and got elected. They aren't smarter than we are, they aren't better educated than we are, many don't have the experience we have. We put entirely too much stock in these frail people.

So anyone here want to volunteer to "take charge" of the next big one???

", as these people seem to treat August as their own personal sabatical at our expense!!!"

I have no objection whatsoever to any president taking off the same weeks Congress goes home. Every president has a remote "white house" with constant communication capacity. SO LET'S STOP THIS NONSENSE OF ALL THOSE CONGRETIONAL BREAKS! The military doesn't get weeks off. The federal employees don't get weeks off. These are federal employees from the Oval Office to the broom closets of capitol hill. Put everyone on the same schedule!

In days of yore the representatives needed to go home to communicate effecively with their constituency. Now they can do online town hall meetings, emails, pick up a phone.... They can communicate just fine from D.C.

4] Where once the great World Trade Center towers stood, STILL there is a HOLE... and STILL there is bickering as to when that HOLE will once again be home to great commerce and development...

Well you can't put this one on George Bush. It isn't his hole in the ground. It isn't his city. It isn't his state. Where is your mayor? Why can't you people get your act together in New York without blaming Washington?

Here's a thought - let this particular Port Authority property be taken over by those nice people in Dubai. Let them fill the hole and run the new WORLD TRADE CENTER! Take a gander at their national website - wow! Dubai City is gorgeous! They know how to build stuff.

CONGRETIONAL hmmm alternate new spelling...

Ace,

Don't be a jerk.

Just use people's names.

It's not hard to do.

9-11 was so horrendous an event nobody could have forseen it coming the way it came down. Even bin Laden was shocked, had no idea two planes would bring down the towers. He was just hoping for some shock n awe.

Did the adminstration have some advance clues? I think so. And I think they were so unthinkable they managed them the same way the advance notice on Pearl Harbor was handled - set aside and ignored.

"Faulty intelligence precipitating the Iraq invasion? Blame the Brits..."

No - blame the Russians, the French and the Germans...they all had the same information or at least claim they did. I still think it might have been a setup - let's get Georgie to do it cause we want it done but we don't wanna do it.

And don't forget the United Nations complicity! Had they been able to do anything about 12 years of threats against Sadaam while he and Kofi Annon's son were sharing the oil for food proceeds...things might have been quite different.

Hillary Clinton reviewed the "intelligence" and she has said repeatedly everyone in the world believed it!!!

So while defending Hillary's honor do we also villify her for this obvious mistake???

"Remember Brownie didn't get fired... he resigned..."

That's how we fire executives in the government. They resign. In the military they retire early with honors -same thing.

YES HEADS SHOULD BE ROLLING OVER KATRINA....just as soon as we know how many and which ones.

"over the NSA spying nightmare..."

What nightmare? It's being examined in hearings. Nobody has been hung out to dry. So far there has been no evidence released or even leaked that any specific laws were in fact broken. If there were we will hear about it in the New York Times printed by some unethical reporter who "can't divulge his source".

I think it is time the NY TIMES came up on charges with the WASHINGTON POST for printing what they KNOW are classified government documents! And their reporters should sit in jail for disclosing the information.

"EVEN over the "coverup" that failed following Cheney's accidental shooting of his lawyer friend?"

WHAT COVER-UP? they took the man to the local E.R. where they called the sheriff who showed up and started his reports. The group of friends notified the family and the President. The sheriff's department did as all rural sheriff's do and released it to the local newspaper. The big boys were ticked because they didn't get the scoop. Well there was no scoop - the victim wasn't an ambassador or a head of state. No story. One media moron asked why the victim's Dr wasn't immediately revealed. Well that would be because the doctors of private citizens do not talk to the press. Private citizens have rights to privacy. NO COVER-UP.

Have you seen the figures on the President's taxes? Most people in this country don't earn as much in a year as he pays in taxes.

I keep hearing about those tax breaks but nobody has listed any when challenged!

"Many on this loop are saying that the contracts for port management were done years ago... "

That bit of information came from none other than CZA who put on a post from yahoo news off the AP that said the P&O contracts were signed in 2000.

"the congress has the obligation to oversee this change in management, particularly in a case where the country's security is at risk!!!"

check out my 5:13 post for the details

"Where is responsibility? Where is culpability?"

well this is what we are all trying to figure out!

"When do our elected representatives, seeing a growing problem, take the reigns themselves... and restore law and order? The bi-partisan knee-jerk on this one tells me that that time has come..."

I think everyone would agree!

paul... what were they calling you in the posts... clueless? it fits.

wldflwr: You have been keeping busy this afternoon... While I have been a bad blogger. I offended the idiots again.

It really isn't necessary to offend people. The ones who truly require denigration do it to themselves. They don't need help.

Feminism's bitter harvest these ladies were duped out of motherhood

Pretty poignant. Ladies, if you're feeling bad because you haven't quite got the figure you used to, don't worry. If you have kids, you're beautiful.

There are more and more women out there nearing fifty with a mom in a nursing home, and a designer baby they had at 39, wondering whose going to take care of them in their dotage.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/text/print.html?in_article_id=378163

I know it is not necessary to get down to their level. I don't think of liberals as people but more as evil people. Something to do with what Dr D has been saying. I hope you have a nice weekend.

Like I said, Ace, don't be a jerk.

Use people's names.

Amby That was well-written but severely depressing. She had her chance at one point but didn't want saggy boobs.

Self-worship interfering with the natural process of mating and procreating.

That is a liberal legacy.

Paul, I agree, you can be a jerk for all of us.

Okay, Ace, go ahead and continue to make a fool out of yourself.

Good night.

Ace: You think sheepman, mtn goat, nutman, or whatever his real name is, might be setting up the US government for a lawsuit ? First he claims he worked, then he claims the government dumped nuclear waste where he was working setting fires ( I can't imagine the goon actually putting a fire out ) and then says the Department of Energy lied to him ;^). Really. I'm sure GWB told 'em to do it.

And guess what ? He taught us a Spanish word ! Arroyo means canyon ? I didn't know that. You do know he went to an Ivy League school to get an education far superior to educations obtained at state universities ? Like his Smokey Bear or Smokey the Bare or Smoky Beer stories, he'll tell you all about it sooner or later.

Anyway the education failed, but the student was set loose on the world to succeed as a great back hoe operater in Northern New Mexico. If you don't believe me, check with WldFwr. She has verified his credentials.

Oh, in his spare time he's an assistant to Simon Weisenthal ( now deceased) hunting nazis. He actually found one on this blog ! Every once in a few posts he loves telling everyone about it. I think he'll be moving to Idaho pretty soon since a whole division or more of SS have been located in Sandpoint; with thousands more throughout Idaho.

Just ignore paul. That's nothing more than a distorted echo coming up from the floor of an arroyo where I think he and nutman play with sheep. Shearing them or whatever. Something.

Be kind to your children - they pick your nursing home. And younger generation - give your parents nice gifts you really like because when you go thru their things after the funeral you get it all back!

Ace liberals are not "evil". They see different solutions to problems than the conservatives see. So far neither has done a very sterling job with the country. Maybe that's because both sides misunderstand what evil really is!

BOBBYGEE don't you have wildfires in Montana threatening your sheep? They have them in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico. And yes the government does dump toxic stuff there. The Department of Energy lies to everyone particularly to cover up toxic dumping. Dont' you watch TV?

Contractors with the backhoes are the saviors in the wildfires! They dig the firebreaks.

Can't live in Colorado - Spanish word for red - OR New Mexico and not learn some Spanish. If you don't learn it you sound like an idiot when you can't pronounce the towns or the streets.

I thought everyone who ever watched a western movie knew about the arroyos.

well we have nazis and communists on the blog. We are an equal opportunity typefest.

my my my, really touched a nerve of some sort with the Aryan efforts to get their own 3 states. Wonder why that might be. And prior to their efforts and the most notorious crooked cop in America moving to Sandpoint, Idaho was best known for its potatos.

You know, BOBBYGEE, New Mexico really isn't known much for sheep - too arrid. Montana, on the other hand....

Colorado - Spanish word for red

aka Rojo Roja

Ambyr, that article is just one huge pity party by the author. She chose her lifestyle, and now she has regrets, big deal. Whats your point? How does one "forget" to have kids? Women have approximately 2 decades in which to make this choice. She spent hers partying and persuing material objects, and now ......she wants to blame feminism for that??

Many of us went through our child-bearing years in the time frame when feminism was at its height. In fact , all of us who are baby boomers did. I went to college, worked after I graduated and still had 2 kids. I spent a few years at home with them and went back to work after they started school. The same is true of lots of women in my age group.

The fact that she made bad choices for herself, is no reason to blame anyone else. I'm sure there are women who got married right out of high school and had 3 kids by age 25, who have their own regrets as well.

Would you rather that women had NO choices in life, rather than risking making the wrong ones? Many of us are quite content being allowed to make our own decisions. I surely wouldn't want my daughter to have her options limited.

LOL at all the hurt little right-wing puppies who spend all day and night dishing it out but when its their turn they can't take it. Now BobbyGee calls me a goon... what a quaint and archaic term. Kinda like the person who used it...

Don't believe I've worked as a wildland firefighter? Don't think I have a standing contract with the USDA's Forest Service for ten years now? I really don't care what you believe about me anyhow. You can freeze in your great white north abode for all I care - you and all the other experts who can quote Goering, Goebbels, and Hitler himself from memory there up by the Canadian border.

As to the Cerro Grande Fire of 2000, Google it and you will find that it was very real, very dangerous, and very expensive to all of us as US taxpayers. Whether or not you believe I was there for six weeks again does not matter to me.

And the fact that I own and operate heavy equipment - another reason to denigrate me? I make a good living doing it, and there are days in my profession that I make more by my own effort and ability, between excavation and sales, than a very high percentage of the US populace make in a month. Enough so that I was able to put my daughter through MIT, and this June will be able, with my wife, to see her graduate.

As to your comment about the federal government and its response to disasters, WldFlwr - when it came to the fire at Los Alamos, federal government employees started it, and the city and county of Los Alamos is probably as federally controlled as any equivalent type of jurisdiction in the USA. The federal government also had a huge responsibilty in New Orleans as it was the US Army Corps of Engineers that built and maintained the levees that ended up giving way after Hurricane Katrina.

mtman one of the recent fires in California turns out to have been started with a "controlled burn". Now who would be doing "controlled burns" during the Santa Anas? probably the government.

The levees should never have been built in New Orleans. The city should never have been built below sealevel and the flow of the river and its deltas messed with. To compound it the "unstable soil" they built those levees on turns out to be peat moss. This sort of thing just leaves you shaking your head! Add in repeated budget cuts....

The whole thing never made any sense and it makes less now.

So how do you pin down who to hang when you have a city with the history of New Orleans go under after a few lifetimes of horrendously stupid decisions?

And why are we still talking about New Orleans when there were four states devastated? The entire state of Louisiana was just about destroyed.

Are we really going to sit back and watch the federal government rebuild a city below sea level on the Gulf Coast?

And when do we finally run out of emergency funding for these disasters? How many times do we rebuild little Gulf towns?

Ultimately mankind cannot build a levee system for a category 5 hurricane. They finally decided Katrina was a 3. And so far they have promised that by hurricane season '06 they should have New Orleans back to the level of security they had before Katrina. well golleee that's real comforting.

We really should use the Dutch system with the sea gates to try to break the storm surges. That is the best we are going to be able to do.

sometimes the world feels like a big rubberband that is winding up - gotta wonder when it snaps again.

Wldflwr... I'm impressed with your ability to gloss over responsibilities that all of your "favorites" have not taken seriously... your rhetoric is impressive, intelligent, and misguided... do you send in a note each time your child fails to do his or her homework the night before... is there any "culpability" for not accomplishing tasks that are not recreational, but are rather mandatory? You've tried to make a reasonable explanation for each and every major failing of this administration... and some would nod and say, "yeah, that's the way it happened..." but not me... and not those of us who have real jobs, whose heads would roll if our jobs weren't done promptly, and with care.

'Hillary received the same intelligence reports"... yup... SKEWED... read the Downing Street Memo... PLEASE... I'm sure you'll make some lame excuse... but that's the word... LAME...

Read the August 2001 memo that sat on the desk of the "commander-in-chief" and was then discounted when all hell broke loose some five weeks later...
"No one could have forseen 911?" That's what we PAY these people to do... and when they don't do what they're paid to do, we need to get other people who DID envision these horrific things, to DO THE JOB RIGHT!!!

Y'know, it is still mindboggling to me that a man like John Kerry, whom I REMEMBER sitting in front of congressmen twice his age and with far more eloquence than he had at the time, telling them that Viet Nam was a mistake, that he was THERE, and saw first-hand... he was maligned then... but his wisdom was way beyond his years... and the people of Massachusetts are proud he represents them... because his experience and his honesty have served him well... I'll bet that you bought right into that "swift boat" garbage, didn't you? Well, you, and anyone who did, should be ashamed... bet you think that John McCain is a hero... well, he is... but GWB had those same slime malign him, when he challenged them for the nomination in 2000... I still see awkward body language whenever the two are in close proximity... for good reason...

All of you out there who despise the word LIBERAL should read the definition of that "ugly" term... basically, "liberal" means "free thinker" or "generous" or "copius"... any of these terms negative to you? You bet I'm a proud liberal... I want EVERYONE to enjoy what this country offers... but I'll use YOUR word too... I want to CONSERVE the rights that I have... I want to CONSERVE our resources, which are being squandered for the wrong reasons...

You intimated that the lack of progress in Louisiana is a DEMOCRAT problem... why should it be? We're ALL COUNTRYMEN... to blame Blanco or Nagin is so narrow-minded... you seem to think that it is a political plus to allow people to suffer and die, then to point a finger at the other guys and BLAME... well guess what... I'm old enough to remember the Kitty Genovese incident in Queens, NY... where a 17 yr old girl was beaten and murdered in a courtyard of an apartment complex... people opened their windows to watch, but no one "wanted to get involved"... this is New Orleans... and if our federal leadership thought there was a problem down the line, it was their OBLIGATION to step in... since when did a president need permission to send in the National Guard? Oops... they're all fighting some useless civil war in another country, and weren't around... nobody's saying that too loud, but that's the truth...

In conclusion, I'll speak for myself, but for those of us who have been involved in this nation's politics for more than 50 years, and who are students of history, there has never been a darker time for us all... within five years, our sense of security has been undermined, not by the terrorists, but by the fearmongers who have placed themselves into power by continually crying "wolf," while closing their eyes to the far bigger, more dangerous animals who've struck at our throats... our treasury, which was the envy of the modern world, has been looted... and the excuses for that thievery are so varied and unchecked that we'll need years and trillions to straighten out the mess created... and lastly (and this is my greatest fear!) the system by which we elect leaders has been hijacked by a power elite who own favors from the companies making these voting machines... how can anyone out there stand for a system where there are NO PAPER TRAILS? We're all on our computers... how many of you have had your computers hacked? Have you had to remove viruses? Cookies you didn't put there voluntarily? DO YOU BACK UP YOUR DATA? Well, these people want us to blindly accept outcomes without a backup system to check the authenticity of the outcome... how questionnable is that?! Heck, even the PURPLE FINGER idea was better than this!!!

Be very afraid of a hierarchy that wants you out of its loop, takes no responsibility for failure... and goes willy-nilly into nightmare scenarios without check or balance... I think the word for this is DICTATORSHIP...

Had to respond to this too:
WHAT COVER-UP? they took the man to the local E.R. where they called the sheriff who showed up and started his reports. The group of friends notified the family and the President. The sheriff's department did as all rural sheriff's do and released it to the local newspaper. The big boys were ticked because they didn't get the scoop. Well there was no scoop - the victim wasn't an ambassador or a head of state. No story. One media moron asked why the victim's Dr wasn't immediately revealed. Well that would be because the doctors of private citizens do not talk to the press. Private citizens have rights to privacy. NO COVER-UP.

C'mon... you KNOW that Cheney tried to keep this thing OUT of the news... and that it LEAKED to the local paper... HOURS after a sobriety test was a moot point... the VP is surrounded by people ALL OF THE TIME... Press, doctors, entourage... Private physician keeping the man's condition private? NO... keeping the extent of the injuries QUIET!!! NO WAY that this wasn't hushed up until it could be adequately explained away... That Karl Rove SPIN was pivotal... Please... do not be naive... this is the 21st century... Cell phones and Videophones are everywhere...

This story comes from the Baltimore Sun, via the Chicago Tribune:


"The federal panel that signed off on the Dubai port deal is charged with ensuring that foreign takeovers of U.S. companies don't jeopardize national security, but it's hardly spoiling for a fight.

Of the roughly 1,600 cases it has reviewed in the past generation, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States has considered 25 in need of a full investigation. A dozen were forwarded to the president to decide their fate. Of those, one deal - 16 years ago - was quashed."


Since CFIUS, the committee set up to vet foreign business deals, was set up in 1975, it has proven to be nothing but a rubberstamp. REPEAT:Out of 1600 cases it has reviewed, only 25 have risen to the level of a full investigation, and only ONE has been quashed.

Furthermore, this committee operates with essentially no transparency and no information about its operations and decisions.

Perhaps the main problem with the Committee is that it's chaired by Treasury. Treasury is intrinsically biased towards encouraging foreign investment, which sort of gives them a conflict of interest for a committee oriented towards vetting such transactions.

CFIUS was set up in 1975 under Ford, so although the problems with this committee cannot be blamed on Bushco, the steps that have been taken since this info became public ARE his responsibility. He should have ordered a full investigation immediately instead of pushing this through and threatening vetos.

"CFIUS was set up in 1975 under Ford, so although the problems with this committee cannot be blamed on Bushco, the steps that have been taken since this info became public ARE his responsibility. He should have ordered a full investigation immediately instead of pushing this through and threatening vetos."

The investigative process is written into the regulations whenever there might be a security issue involved. The steps as prescribed have been followed. He is required by law to pronounce yea or nay when the recommendation sent to him.

So how many Democrats were in office since 1975 who didn't seem to have a problem with this either?

TIME TO DITCH THIS AND COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY WORKS!

WldFlwr: So you contend that by Mark Furman moving to Sandpoint, Idaho and the fact that there exists an extremist group of Aryan Nation supporters and an extremist religious organization in Idaho, the entire state is to be ridiculed and denigrated ?

Enter www.adl.org and click on extremism. You'll be led to a map of the U.S. Click on any state and see the results for extremist groups operating in each state by title. Based on your unreasonable logic, there are very few states that do not meet your qualifications for "whackos crawling out from under their right-wing rocks" or however you phrased it. That includes Wisconsin where they would, I guess, crawl out from under their cheese wheels or cow pies.

Extreme political organizations exist everywhere. Some overt others covert. For overt activities all you have to do is 'google' and you'll get thousands and thousands of hits, with Idaho being a very small percentage.

By your stance on this issue, I'll be closely watching political, police and extremist activity in your state so I can 'boogle' you on it. OH, forgot. Another WldFlwrism: If it isn't happening in my state, it's none of my business. Well, guess I'll make it of my business anyway.

For consorting with your friend, New Mexico's famous firefighter, trenchdigger, political conscience and sheepherder (Sheep can be raised on very sparse vegetation as is done worldwide. The Navajo raise them in southern New Mexico) I'll introduce a motion at the next CUHC meeting that your membership be revoked .

If I had a choice of nutman fighting a Montana forest fire and using gasoline, I'd find him a sheep to play with and use the gasoline to fight the fire. The gas would be much more effective.

Does nutman live in Raton ? (wonder what that means in Spanish )

But my question is: Why, now that he is aware of the situation, and when member of BOTH sides of congress are demanding additional time for a more thorough investigation, is he digging in his heels AGAINST it? What harm can this investigation do? Why the bum's rush on this important concern?

Maybe this is revealing:

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The oil-rich United Arab Emirates is a major investor in The Carlyle Group, the private equity investment firm where President Bush’s father once served as senior adviser and is a who’s who of former high-level government officials. Just last year, Dubai International Capital, a government-backed buyout firm, invested in an $8 billion Carlyle fund.

And there's more more:

Another family connection, the president’s brother, Neil Bush, has reportedly received funding for his educational software company from the UAE investors. A call to his company was not returned.


Something stinks here.

Agreed, purple... stinks to HIGH HELL... but then again, how many deals these people have made in the past 5 years DON'T STINK to high hell!!! Look at their favorite... the unnecessary mess in Iraq... the situation is going to pieces now... but GWB keeps on smiling... ARGH!!!

"your rhetoric is impressive, intelligent, and misguided.."

Well now I would say exactly the very same thing about yours. But isn't it nice that we can dialog while respecting each other's sincerity?

". do you send in a note each time your child fails to do his or her homework the night before..."

The older four went to public schools, the youger four were homeschooled thru high school. There were no excuses for homework not done.

" is there any "culpability" for not accomplishing tasks that are not recreational, but are rather mandatory?"

There should be and the system of checks and balances should provide redress.

" You've tried to make a reasonable explanation for each and every major failing of this administration... and some would nod and say, "yeah, that's the way it happened..." but not me."

I do not buy into the empty rhetoric of either party. I do not take any reports at face value. Once something is proven to be not the facts I am the first to say hang 'em high. Are you entirely certain that you do not in fact just nod and say yeah that's the way it happened if you read it on a Democratic website, hear it in a Democratic rally, read it in a liberal paper or magazine? some of your information in your post is just wrong, not your opinions, just your facts.

".. and not those of us who have real jobs, whose heads would roll if our jobs weren't done promptly, and with care."

This is entirely true but high level political positions in either party are not "real jobs".

'Hillary received the same intelligence reports"... yup... SKEWED..."

Hillary has stated in repeated interviews that everyone believed the intelligence worldwide. Are you denying her veracity? You have no confidence in her statements?

"read the Downing Street Memo... PLEASE... I'm sure you'll make some lame excuse... but that's the word... LAME..."

You don't want me to be naive but you are putting stock in a leaked "memo" - one of those "documents" that has come out of the shadows delivered by some sleuth who is already breaking the law.
What evidence is there that the unnamed high placed White House source or Downing Street source isn't a janitor paid well for the "document"? Could have been written up on any computer. And then these things are printed by media moguls whose ratings skyrocket but they know they are printing "protected goverment papers" obtained from some thief. Lame? Follow the money straight to the New York Times and the Washington Post and think very honestly what's in it for them?

"Read the August 2001 memo that sat on the desk of the "commander-in-chief" and was then discounted when all hell broke loose some five weeks later...
"No one could have forseen 911?"

Good point but did we hang the clown in the Oval Office when the advance warning of Pearl Harbor came through?

And why is it we still revere Winston Churchill who is now known to have "leaked a memo" to the Germans mentioning the arms on the Lucitania thereby being responsible for all those deaths - but drawing us predictably into the war?

"That's what we PAY these people to do... and when they don't do what they're paid to do, we need to get other people who DID envision these horrific things, to DO THE JOB RIGHT!!!"

NO ARGUEMENT HERE! November is coming.

From an article by Joe Conason:

For the president, his administration's lenience toward the Emirates recalls the unpleasant history of Harken Energy, the loser oil exploration firm that provided him with a handsome profit when he unloaded his shares during the summer of 1990. Years earlier, Harken had been rescued from bankruptcy by timely investments of millions of dollars from the scandal-ridden Bank of Credit and Commerce International, also known as the "bank of crooks and criminals." Although dominated by Saudi friends of Dubya's dad, BCCI was headquartered in the Emirates, specifically in Abu Dhabi.

That may seem like old history, but the first family's intimate connection with the UAE royals has continued without rupture over the past two decades.

Last year, to cite only the most recent example, Carlyle's newest buyout fund won an infusion of at least $100 million from the Dubai Investment Corp. -- another state-owned outfit created by the ruling families to reinvest the enormous inflows of capital from rising oil prices and oil consumption. If that individual deal with Carlyle represented only a small fraction of the Emirates' investments, the upside potential of the relationship could be far greater in the future. The directors of Dubai Investment expect to invest as much as $5 billion every year for a long time to come.

No doubt Carlyle will ardently bid to manage a slice of those billions -- and the president surely understands that maintaining good relations with the Emirates will enhance the prospects of the family's favorite equity firm. But to deprive Dubai of its $6.8 billion ports acquisition might well have the opposite effect. For a company that trades on its political influence as well as its business acumen, such incidents can be pivotal.

jz88keys - great 12:00AM EST post. Several of us have explained the definition of the word "liberal" to the members of this blog, but are countered by idealogues such as DrDarryl et al. who continue to claim the "L" word is a cover for evil.

BobbyGee - you are so far off on your "facts" once again that I have to feel you are suffering from dimentia if not out and out delusion. FACT: there are NO Navajos in "southern New Mexico". The Navajo Nation (as they prefer to be known) encompasses a huge area of land encompassing the 4 Corners area, including parts of northern NM & AZ, as well part of SE Utah. Indeed, the actual monument marking the exact point where the states of NM, AZ, UT, and CO meet is on Navajo land.

Yes - Navajos do raise sheep, including a sub-species they bred themselves from the stock originally imported to the Southwest US by the Spanish conquistadors known as churro.

No - I do not live in Raton, which is more than 100 driving miles from Taos, near which I do live.

I've worked with smokejumpers and sawyers from Montana and can assure you they have far different ideas about my capabilities than some stuffy old ex-military Nazi-quoting bigot like you, BobbyGee. Believe what you want - the world has passed you by and you don't know how to deal with other than to lash out at others. Many of us recognize who the real "village idiot" is here on the blog... and he lives in Montana.

"and the people of Massachusetts are proud he represents them..."

It is very nice his constituents are proud of him and they should keep him right there in Massachussetts representing them.

"because his experience and his honesty have served him well... I'll bet that you bought right into that "swift boat" garbage, didn't you? Well, you, and anyone who did, should be ashamed."

And here you slip from the sublime to the ridiculous. You lose the bet. I didn't have to swollow the Swift Boater lines because we know actual people who actually served with Kerry in Nam. His experience is questionable.

As for his honesty - He came to Wisconsin and went to Minnesota and told the dairy farmers [held rallies at milking time! ] how he fully supports them! He represents a state in the Northeast Compact. He can't support opposing factions in the same industry!

".. bet you think that John McCain is a hero... well, he is..."

I think John McCain was a hero and I think you can't ride on that ticket till death do us part. John McCain is villified by the Republicans for wanting bipartisan cooperation, exactly as Barak Obama is being shut down by the Democrats for the same reason. John McCain has said over and over and over he will not run in 2008 because he will be too old. If he goes back on his word does that mean he got younger? Or that he went back on his word. This is another of those I will wait and see things.

What if he claims "a clear mandate of the people"? A clear mandate is winning an election you didn't run in, on write-ins, over an unopposed incumbant. Happened just down the road.

WldFlwr - you say "And here you slip from the sublime to the ridiculous. You lose the bet. I didn't have to swollow the Swift Boater lines because we know actual people who actually served with Kerry in Nam. His experience is questionable."

Perhaps. But Kerry's Vietnam experience is documented, and he did indeed volunteer to serve his nation and actually went to war. What happened to the documentation of George W. Bush's National Guard "experience" from 1972 through 1973? There are people who has testified that they saw the records be destroyed.

You know people who actually "served with Kerry in Nam". I know people who have actually met George W. Bush when he was 40 years old and was still a raging and obnoxious drunk. He probably can't put together sentences well save with the help of a teleprompter because he probably killed too many brain cells during his alcoholic days.

You really need to look at both sides of the issues a bit more, WldFlwr, instead of automatically providing excuses for whatever Bush and his Administration does.

Wldflwr... You've probably determined by now that I don't buy rhetoric from either side... I'm a fact lady...

Re Hillary... I will admit that she is trying to walk a fine line these days in order to keep her prospects open... but there is no doubt that the entire congress was fed a bill of goods without proper justification... that is why the reasoning behind the invasion has changed from WMD to bringing democracy to the Iraqi people and every reason in between... in other words, they made up the facts as they went along...

To the person that knew someone who served with Kerry, I'd like to see him on this blog, stating provable facts... absent that, I won't buy his rhetoric either... but the congressional hearings that I personally watched in the Viet Nam days were seen with my own eyes, and the "spin" was my own opinion, minus any talking head telling me what version of the truth I was supposed to believe... OH... and incidentally, before those hearings, I was PRO-WAR... so you see, people with open minds, who listen, can make different conclusions...

To automatically conclude that the Downing Street Memo, and subsequent revelations that the Iraq invasion was a foregone conclusion BEFORE 911 is also short-sighted... if you always ascribe a political motive to the leaking of these things, you put yourself into a closed-minded place...
Do you think that the outing of Valerie Plame was anything BUT political punishment for her husband, Joe Wilson? What are the facts? Certainly she'd mean nothing to you or me, unless SOMEONE wanted her to...

My complaint with all of this is that we're being fed a line of who-know-what... you can talk the talk and walk the walk, but if these people want you to be swayed, they'll do their Madison Avenue hard sell, and most of the American consumer public takes the bait, hook, line and sinker... and we ARE sinking now...

Last thought... although John McCain's positions are, for the most part, not mine, I did have a modicum of respect for the man until he supported GWB's reelection... because at that moment, someone I thought noble and of high principles had "sold out"... had he run with Kerry, his old buddy, (and someone he's often spoken of very highly,) you'd see a very different America today!!!

"You intimated that the lack of progress in Louisiana is a DEMOCRAT problem.."

I don't intimate. It wouldn't matter which party was in power in Louisiana, they have a long history of corruption.

$300 a month poured into New Orleans - and went where? Not into the 9th Ward for housing. Not into levee maintenance.

" to blame Blanco or Nagin is so narrow-minded... "

Blanco froze like the deer in the headlights. Is this understandable? Yes, entirely given the enormity of the crisis. But the difference between the citizens and their leaders is supposed to be the ability to function when it's necessary. Did she get it together later? YES.

Nagin had a really comprehensive written disaster plan. But where are the lists of the personnel assigned to the tasks? Are those charged with the bus driving being prosecuted? Where is the effort to find all those drivers of empty SUVs whizzing by the refugees - YES REFUGEES! - on their way out of town to safety? Reckless Endanerment and Depraved Indifference.

I was mistaken about the wherabouts of Mayor Nagin. He did not leave the ship, he went down with it. He also was the only person on the planet willing to tell the President the truth with no apologies!
He made a few other really stupid mistakes but then where is the precedence for this anyway?

"you seem to think that it is a political plus to allow people to suffer and die, then to point a finger at the other guys and BLAME"

You must have been getting angry when you typed that because you really are completely wrong. There is no expediency political or otherwise in a natural disaster.

What "other guys"?- security and disaster preparedness are the concern of the states. You don't get states' rights without states' responsibilties.

"... well guess what... I'm old enough to remember the Kitty Genovese incident in Queens, NY... where a 17 yr old girl was beaten and murdered in a courtyard of an apartment complex... people opened their windows to watch, but no one "wanted to get involved".."

well guess what...I am older than you and America has not forgotten Kitty and what happened to her. And this event defined New York City for a generation of Americans.

" since when did a president need permission to send in the National Guard?"

The National Guard is controlled by the governors of the states. There is a process for the federalization of the troops. Without federalization the president has no clear authority to mobilize them. It takes time to effect it. After the appropriate shuffle the president can call in the cavalry. It is also illegal for the guard of one state to be used in another state without a special dispensation - that put into effect to prevent one state from invading another. So there was another delay - back to the Pentagon.

When troops were sent into cities in Alabama in the 60s because the governor was the problem, the whole nation held its collective breath to see if there would be a civil war over civil rights.

Mississippi's governor didn't seem to have problems getting his troops in after the storm.

And some of the Louisiana guard once in New Orleans were trapped with everyone else till the Active Duty troops arrived.

" Oops... they're all fighting some useless civil war in another country, and weren't around... nobody's saying that too loud, but that's the truth..."

Well nobody is saying it because it is NOT THE TRUTH. 60% of the national guard was in country at the time.

"for those of us who have been involved in this nation's politics for more than 50 years, and who are students of history, there has never been a darker time for us all..."

Well that's a trick at your age or mine! I was involved in politics, had a great time, did the precinct chairman - county delegate -state delegate thing as a Democrat. Walked away and the Republicans are no better. There is no organized party in this nation that represents the people. So we have to vote our conscience and see who is running.

" the fearmongers who have placed themselves into power"

Placed themselves? elections! Granted the presidential runs have been somewhat argueable but how do you suppose the Republicans gained control of both houses? They threw every election in the country?

What fearmongers? The one person who has repeatedly said "there is no cause to live in fear, just go about your lives, don't make any changes" is the President.

"our treasury, which was the envy of the modern world, has been looted...

those are rather strong terms. Got any FACTS? What are you calling looted? One of my pet peaves is that the government ignores our ASSETTS. Anyone remember what those are? They offset the debits.

When was our treasury the envy of the world? The dollar has been slipping for decades. It wasn't worth 100 cents when we were in junior high. When we could no longer support it on the gold standard we just said okay, silver then. IF OPEC goes to demanding EUROS we are in deep kimshi in this country!

" and the excuses for that thievery are so varied and unchecked that we'll need years and trillions to straighten out the mess created..."

I hope you aren't going with Perry to tell us how George and his friend Hallburton pack the money into bags at night in the Oval Office [we all know it's the Blue Room] and put it in those "offshore Swiss banks".

" how can anyone out there stand for a system where there are NO PAPER TRAILS? "

What on earth has ever made you think the "paper trails" were reliable?

"We're all on our computers... how many of you have had your computers hacked? Have you had to remove viruses? Cookies you didn't put there voluntarily? "

Now if you are discussing computer security - a timely topic indeed. Yep, had my browser hijacked once. The way to prevent viruses is a really top notch security system with a firewall and auto-updates. As for cookies - you DID put them there voluntarily by virtue of visiting websites or opening emails with them. Get a good spyware program and run it every day. Another easy enough trick - every day delete all temporary internet files. That gets most of the cookies.

Now if you are trying to alllude to the government using our computers - well this is fearmongering.

"Heck, even the PURPLE FINGER idea was better than this!!!"

TOTALLY TRUE! A GOOD SYSTEM and it sure would have put a stop to all those college students in Milwaukee who voted repeatedly!

"Be very afraid"

There is no cause to fear unless you are anchored in the rhetoric of politics! That's tying yourself to the wind- or is it hot air?

"... I think the word for this is DICTATORSHIP..."

How is it possible this ignorant, bumbling, inarticulate, out-if-the-know president who parties at the wrong time is an evil mastermind dictator? Or are you suggesting Rove is under the desk in the Oval Office?

I give up... you obviously have your take on what's happening and I have mine... hopefully we'll both be alive long enough to watch history's take on all of this... my prediction is that it will be the lowest point in our nation's history... more corruption than during Nixon, or the early 20th century et al... more world unrest CAUSED by our failures than CORRECTED with our help...

You hit it on the head when you brought up Alabama... KENNEDY ordered in the National Guard... if George W Bush went on national TV, as he's done so many times before for political advantage, and declared that the National Guard be mobilized for Louisiana, I'm sure neither Blanco nor Nagin would've said, "Nah, let 'em drown!"

Facts speak volumes... on September, GWB, in an interview on ABC's GMA said "No one had any idea that the levees would be breached!" OH YES THEY DID... and if he was out of touch, he should have turned on any network...

I disagree with you on your line about natural (or national) disasters... this president has fed his entire legacy on a national disaster (and FAILURE!)... He ran to Florida after Hurricane Jeanne to hand out water right before the 2004 elections... he did photo ops everywhere along the Gulf coast within days after the PR went downhill... This is the totally staged presidency, with scripted photo ops and speeches given before supporters ONLY... no non-supporters admitted... this is not conjecture... this is fact with evidence. Cindy Sheehan wore a T-shirt which stated the factual number of servicemen and women killed in Iraq to the state of the union, and was ARRESTED for it... apologies after the fact are hollow... she was wrestled, cuffed, and led away... the handlers didn't want any network pictures of that T-shirt... just as Cheney didn't want his questionnable hunting safety habits displayed... and was visibly angered when the press caught on... this is media manipulation of the highest order... I fear it, I loathe it, and I want it stopped... or this free nation is no longer free...

(The scariest thing is the fact that your emails, the websites you visit, and even this blog are probably monitored... are YOU a terrorist? Neither am I!!!)

" you KNOW that Cheney tried to keep this thing OUT of the news..."

No I don't and who told you that? There was no way he could keep it out of the news. He's the VP.

"and that it LEAKED to the local paper..."

There isn't any leak. The cops and/or sheriff call up every day and tell them all the "blotter" news and it comes out in the next edition - minus names.

" HOURS after a sobriety test was a moot point..."

The hunting party went out midafternoon.

I am pleased to know you are not a heart patient taking cardiac meds! One beer, one glass of red wine - with food. That's it. So yep, a sobriety test was a moot point.

"Private physician keeping the man's condition private? NO.."

YES - private citizens have rights to privacy that public officials do not.

". keeping the extent of the injuries QUIET!!!"

What keeping quiet? I guess you have never taken anyone into the E.R. with a serious injury - the doctors won't give the family a prognosis for 48-72 hours.

And kept quiet? The man has been photographed by every magazine in the country after his discharge.

" NO WAY that this wasn't hushed up until it could be adequately explained away..."

There is no "adequate explanation" - just the facts that everyone knew in less than 24 hours. Cheney heard a rustle in the brush, swung around and fired. Broke hunting guidelines, shot his friend. That's about it.

Between defending Cheney and Ted Kennedy I spend a lot of time on this blog. TED KENNEDY DID NOT KILL MARY JO. There was no plot. There was no crime. There was no cover-up - a man in shock after a friend had died. Period. And that is the very same thing for Cheney - no plot, no crime, no cover-up - a man in shock after a friend had died.

It is just as wrong for Democrats to come on here with this conspiracy coverup crap over Cheney's accident as it is for the Republicans to do it over Ted Kennedy.

BOBBYGEE Shakespeare had a one-liner that covered this entire thing quite nicely. You being an educated man and therfor knowing the difference between Shakespeare and the Bible will know which one I mean.

COLORME "Something stinks here."

You didn't notice all the fatcats in the government have these international ties? Care to untie the Heinz Corporation entites or any other big American company? Just because we little people don't have the international connections doesn't mean that everyone who does is a crook. They could be...but aren't necessarily.

In case nobody noticed the Adminsitration did negotiate more time with the Dubai people to give Congress an up-to-speed on this. The Dubai company graciously consented. No problem.

doesn't anyone here watch the new???

Ace: You think sheepman, mtn goat, nutman, or whatever his real name is, might be setting up the US government for a lawsuit ? ( I can't imagine the goon actually putting a fire out ) and ....
Posted by: BobbyGee on Feb 25, 06 | 8:25 pm

Bobby Gee:
I can imagine a sick individual like nutman setting the fires just so he can later claim be the local hero putting them out. His personality type needs lots of affirmation.

Joe Conason - New York Observer, Manhatten

oh yeah, New Yorker, oozing credibility

You are just so trusting of everything these people do... I have no idea where the Kool Aid is... but I'm glad I'm not drinking it...

Must go but need to answer... YES, there are scary people in the back rooms running our country at present... Smiling George hasn't got the panache or the vocabulary...

All of my "fellas" are in computer IT... and I can assure you that if you're connected to the internet, you are vulnerable... all of the election results transmitted by electronic means are vulnerable as well...

How did both houses of congress wind up the way they did? Ahhhh all politics is local, EXCEPT when it is manipulated... You're awfully trusting... I haven't got a shred of trust... my identity has already been stolen and abused... and it's only a matter of time for anyone on the net...

Remember the duct tape and plastic campaign? Do YOU have yours? I'm a fatalist... if my time's up, it's up... but I'll be damned if I don't keep my eyes open... and these people who take my shoes off at the airport but have no problem selling the operations of six of our major ports to an outsider are very well-insulated... it's for sure GWB isn't worried about his family eating or getting sick and not being able to afford medical care... he'll also have a secure location if he needs one... as will Cheney when he needs protection of any kind... Telling me to "go about my business" is a moot point... you obviously are not from New York... where f-16s circled our airspace for about a year after 911, where that column of smoke was rising overhead for about 5 months, where there are still armed soldiers at our train stations... Seeing our new police state is scary... if you aren't affected by all of that, you're fortunate...

Which brings me to the "one drink" line... Cheney has TWO DWIs on his record... and as the wife of a man who's had bypass surgery, I know firsthand that one drink leaves him far more "affected" than someone not on meds... that's why he doesn't take even one... Ah... but Cheney admitted he HAD had one... and didn't submit to an interview for eighteen hours after the incident... A rustle in the grass and he shoots willy-nilly... to make sure he kills an innocent creature... and hits A MAN instead of a QUAIL... the two so similar in size?! Wouldn't it have made sense to go right to the sheriff, get it over with on the spot, rather than appear to be hiding for hours?

We respectfully differ on the motives these people have, on the methods they've used, on their capabilities to continue to lead this country in the best direction... Stay tuned...

DPW has "graciously" permitted the 45 day investigatory period? IT IS MANDATED IN US LAW... they had no choice!!! (Sort of like "graciously paying taxes!!!")
Yup, we're watching the news... news junkie here... the only continuing problem... the contract is due to be signed March 2 REGARDLESS of the 45 day vetting... and once signed, it is indeed more difficult to undo...
Let's hope they postpone the SIGNING as well...

MTMAN DD FORM 214

"There are people who has testified that they saw the records be destroyed"

and their credibility was never established. Were these the same people who gave Dan Rather "documents"?

The total record doesn't have to be kept in hard copy. IF the service member chooses to maintain a personal 201 that's just a good idea. But the whole thing is automated so it isn't necessary provided you really trust computers.

You know people who actually "served with Kerry in Nam". I know people who have actually met George W. Bush when he was 40 years old and was still a raging and obnoxious drunk."

A man can stop drinking.

"He probably can't put together sentences well save with the help of a teleprompter because he probably killed too many brain cells during his alcoholic days."

if falling down drunk for a few years renders people srupid then our colleges are turning out some real morons.

what do you suppose renders people dishonest?

MTMAN - the posts last night and today were point/counter point to JZ88s She presented one side, I presented the other. Posts need to be taken in their context.

If I wrote a comprehensive Wild Bill bash I would expect someone to counter it point by point.

"Bobby Gee:
I can imagine a sick individual like nutman setting the fires just so he can later claim be the local hero putting them out. His personality type needs lots of affirmation.

Posted by: Ace on Feb 26, 06 | 1:41 pm"

Is this an accusation that you can back up with facts, Ace? Or are you attempting to slander me by accusing me of illegal acts? A "sick individual" is what I call anyone who makes up crimes and pins it on others in order to feed their inflated sense of self-righteousness. Both you and that other arrogant right-winger BobbyGee had best learn to temper your cyber tongues in regards to accusing people of committing criminal acts, especially when based wholly on your impressions of someone on a blog.

Wild, Somehow I don't think Heinz ketchup has the kind of ties to UAE sheiks that the Bush family oil interests do!

Besides the Kerry/Heinz families are not the ones promoting this deal to procede.

JZ nobody ever changed the reason for going into Iraq. Once it was clear the "intelligence" was wrong, it was acknowledged it was wrong. We were already there so then what?

Should we have heard it sooner? Probably but once you have operated on one set of information and found out it was all wrong should you jump right in with another or take your time before sticking your foot into it again?

Maybe the problem here is that all of you have jobs that preclude actually watching some of the press conferences so you get the recap and the sound byte with the slant of the reporter. I have seen a lot of speeches where the reporter's summation was so different from the actuality you had to wonder what he was smoking in the back of the room! Probably many members of the press come in with their reports half-written with the orientation of the ownership of their magazine/newspaper. Afterall they all want to keep their jobs.

We have all seen the Republican/Democratic "recap" of a major speech. How often do they actually address anything said? They were clearly prepared in advance.


"To the person that knew someone"

several someones. Are first person accounts ever provable?

I was pro-Nam for a very long time. Not now. And I think WWII was a big waste of time, money and blood except for the institution of Israel as a nation. And we still have no exit strategy for Korea.

And by the way why are we in Korea? The athletes from North and South marched in together in a fine show of unity.

"if you always ascribe a political motive to the leaking of these things, you put yourself into a closed-minded place.."

So we have these sainted martyrs running around Washington and London saving mankind from evil politicians. No money involved. Just political philanthrophy.

That's a nice thought by the way.

And big newspapers making millions selling to both sides of the bird telling it all both ways why?

"Do you think that the outing of Valerie Plame was anything BUT political punishment for her husband, Joe Wilson? What are the facts? "

THOSE ARE VERY GOOD QUESTIONS WE ALL WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO. There is so much going on other than this why aren't there indictments? I don't believe we can believe LIBBY. We have no cause to believe him. How convenient to say his "superiors"then not name them! It is still entirely unclear what her job was or was not. There have been so many conflicint reports. There was a lot of noise about the investigation to see what her friends and neighbors all knew and did she out herself. Since nothing was said again that may mean it was a wild goosechase.

Libby is covering his assetts. It doesn't mean he is covering anyone else. But maybe.

Personal moral of story - those who work in the spy-spook groups have no expectation of safety. It's calculated risk to work there. I want to know why on earth her husband was an ambassador given her profession? Who screwed that up?

"My complaint with all of this is that we're being fed a line of who-know-what... "

ABSOLUTELY TRUE! but I have no cause to believe the Democrats will be any more honest with us- having been one.

I would like to see the country drop this two-man ticket nonsense. There is nothing in the Constitution that says we have to have two of the same party. Why not a Democrat as president and and Republican as Vice President?

and frankly, my attitudes toward women in government have changed completely and the wives of our candidates would have been better choices.

"I give up... you obviously have your take on what's happening and I have mine... hopefully we'll both be alive long enough to watch history's take on all of this..."

YES AND ISN'T IT GREAT? a civil exchange whether we agree of not. This is what makes this country strong that other people in the world don't grasp.

I am not really sure I want to live long enough to see it play out.

"if George W Bush went on national TV, as he's done so many times before for political advantage, and declared that the National Guard be mobilized for Louisiana, I'm sure neither Blanco nor Nagin would've said, "Nah, let 'em drown!"

GOOD POINT AND TRUE.

One big problem with the presidency is the handlers, the managers, the "team". Al Gore might have won without those cheerful guys who advised him into looking like a wooden indian! He was so different after the election! He should have listened to himself or maybe his wife! The Angela business on Leno was really an indicator - his team threw her out of the building with an NBC camera crew! Of course Gore knew nothing about it and when he found out he fixed it - on NBC! But good grief!

Bob Dole is another who came across dull and lifeless and boring until afterward when he turned out to be a lot of fun with actual ideas. Although I remember the FIRST midnight payraise back in the early 70s and HE was the author.

"No one had any idea that the levees would be breached!" OH YES THEY DID... and if he was out of touch, he should have turned on any network..."

TRUE - and in the White House on somebody's desk was the report of the drill from fall 04 that now reads like the headlines. But our presidents pay people to be on top of these things. Somebody really blew it! Hopefully we will find out who. It isn't enough for Brown to take the rap guilty as he was.

But I think Chertoff and company are in a panic to be ready for June. or at least they better be.

Actually all the nonsense going on is called POLITICS AS USUAL.

"The scariest thing is the fact that your emails, the websites you visit, and even this blog are probably monitored... are YOU a terrorist? Neither am I!!!)"

I'm an Army and DoD wife and I always operate on the assumption the anything and possibly everything I do on this computer could be monitored. Same with the telephone.

WldFlwr - I grew up on military bases and my mother always believed we were being monitored, even after my father left the service. Maybe we were, as he did have top secret clearance.

HOWEVER - it's one thing for this to possibly be the case for the military, it is another entirely for the average American citizen to believe he or she is being monitored, especially in this time of near instananeous global communication and given the fact that we have the 4th amendment right to privacy. This is where the Big Brother aspect of domestic spying comes into play, especially regarding the by-pass of the FISA courts.

"You're awfully trusting... I haven't got a shred of trust.."

and somewhere in the middle will be the truth.

." my identity has already been stolen and abused... and it's only a matter of time for anyone on the net..."

My sister had her identity stolen in that big deal a couple years back. She doesn't have a computer and never uses She ended up with several cards and thousands in purchases all over the country. Didn't cost her anything but time and aggravation to unscramble!

so everyone is vulnerable!

"Remember the duct tape and plastic campaign? Do YOU have yours?"

This is another city thing. People here just laughed! We do a lot of things with duct-tape and plastic but we sure don't look for protection from nuclear blasts from them!

When I was in high school we lived inside Ground Zero from Martin Marietta. Had a new teacher come in from New York City and he was so upset to find we didn't all have bomb shelters! Well if you live at Ground Zero you don't need one!

The Dubai faction ARE graciously waiting. Our 45 days are up. We have asked for more time. They don't have to wait it out, they can walk anytime they choose. Our 10% of the P&O deal isn't make or break on their purchase of the other 90%.

The 2 March signing is the sale between P&O and Dubai. They can sign the rest of it and leave our part hanging.

"Somehow I don't think Heinz ketchup has the kind of ties to UAE sheiks that the Bush family oil interests do!"

well there's just more money in oil. Although $8 BILLION annual is not to be sneezed at. [And I am going to buy a bottle of Heinz catsup in the new upside down bottle - what a fabulous idea. I can put Hunts in it later....costs less.] I bet there are Heinz catsup facilities in Dubai.

"Besides the Kerry/Heinz families are not the ones promoting this deal to procede."

has Kerry weighed in on this? or is he off on the slopes of Klosters calling for filibusters?

MTMAN "I grew up on military bases and my mother always believed we were being monitored, even after my father left the service. Maybe we were, as he did have top secret clearance."

Well now she may have been right. Moved into quarters once and found a small round metal thing in a closet. Don't know if it was a bug - didn't take a chance - got rid of the thing and checked the rest of the place, also the phones.

Top Secret - several steps down from my ex.

The question is - are the AVERAGE citizens being monitored? don't know. Maybe only those on blogs?

Is this an accusation that you can back up with facts, Ace? Or are you attempting to slander me by accusing me of illegal acts?
Posted by: nutman on Feb 26, 06 | 1:58 pm

It is my opinion of a fake know it all otherwise known on this blog as mtnman.

What's the matter, you feeling guilty over something???

BobbyGee: did you see the latest excuse from nutman?

I grew up on military bases and my mother always believed we were being monitored...
Posted by: nutman on Feb 26, 06 | 2:44 pm

Next he will be telling us it was at Area 56 ...that explains a lot... other than being a fraud he is a SECOND generation loser wearing a tinfoil hat sitting alone in the NM desert! (in a fireman costume from Walmart.)

Again, Ace-hole, you know for a fact that I am a fake? All of you extremist right-wing ace-holes are cut from the same cloth- you attempt to discredit anyone who holds a view contrary to yours by calling them fakes or worse. In the meantime, you personally hide behind your veil of anonymity gloating at how clever you think you are. No wonder you buy into the Emperor's New Clothes fairy tale that is the Bush Administration.

Mtn, "Fairy Tale"? That's a nice little euphemism......but a little too benign. I think you meant horror story, didn't you?

Ace,

Your comment:

"It is my opinion of a fake know it all otherwise known on this blog as mtnman."

In arriving at that opinion did you apply BobbyGee's test for truthfulness:

"Moral equivalences drawn using single instances would not be comparable evidence."

Did you use multiple instances that then manifested comparable evidence?

Were they morally equivalent?

Or was there some deviance?

Or just clouded by deviance?

Wild's post earlier today:

"".. and not those of us who have real jobs, whose heads would roll if our jobs weren't done promptly, and with care."

This is entirely true but high level political positions in either party are not "real jobs"

Yes they are! This about sums up the problem with political appointees. They do have REAL jobs, for which they get paid well, and the jobs have REAL consequences. When you put people like "heckuva job" Brownie in them, you get exactly what you should expect- someone who is not prepared for or capable of doing the job. But it still needs to be done! And those political appointees are often put in positions after being lobbyists or some other position that is more interested in regulating or eliminating the job altogether. Serious foxes guarding chicken coops.

And this: "What fearmongers? The one person who has repeatedly said "there is no cause to live in fear, just go about your lives, don't make any changes" is the President."

At the same time Bush was telling us to go out and shop, Cheney was saying "if you vote for Kerry, they will strike again", and Rice was talking about mushroom clouds. They're all fearmongers, it's what got them elected.

Did anyone else notice this?

And I think WWII was a big waste of time, money and blood except for the institution of Israel as a nation.
Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 26, 06 | 2:26 pm

I can honestly say you're the ONLY person I've ever heard express a sentiment like that.

well Swimm we have all that romantic fantasy about the "big one".

All those men died at Normandy which was only the beginning and now the French and the Germans have co-mingled military units. So from what did we save the French?

We spent all those years "protecting" West Germany and West Berlin from the East Germans. Now they are united.

Our WWII enemies all became our friends. Our WWII allies have become our untrustworthy enemies.

We rebuilt our enemies and now they are putting us under the table economically. US Steel [changed their name to USX, don't know what it is this year] shut down plants laying off thousands and crashing the coal mining industry when they decided to import cheaper pre-formed steel from Germany.

Don't we all own Japanese cameras? Many drive Japanese cars....how about electronics?

We stopped the Holocaust - a few million people too late. That is the only accomplishment.

ACE there is nothing fake about Mtman. If you and BobbyGee don't know how to use a computer to get information it isn't his fault! He is everything he claims he is.

You don't have to like the guy but you don't have to call him a fake which just makes you look really 'out of it'.

SWIMM appointments should be real jobs but there isn't a great deal of evidence to support the notion.

Brownie is the proof yet again of the Peter Principle and who doesn't know someone else who is?

We need a better way to fill these critical positions. Good buddies getting favors is decidedly not the way to go!

Every one of these people needs to fill out the OPM application and be reviewed objectively as any other applicant!

"Cheney was saying "if you vote for Kerry, they will strike again",

Well that is ridiculous because they will strike again no matter who is the president. George Bush didn't make bin Laden hate us. bin Laden doesn't care who our president is.

On the other hand did Cheney say this or is this spin? Was it pulled out of context?

Remember the Republicans did a job on Dick Lamb over something he supposedly said that in its context had nothing akin to the meaning their spin doctors created with it.

" and Rice was talking about mushroom clouds."

Well mushroom clouds are a very real possibility. Not discussing them doesn't make the threat go away. Remember as Secretary of State she has to deal with those people who have the nukes and some who plan to help Iran get them.

So you think Rice shouldn't mention anything scarey? don't confuse us with facts?

It is just hard to believe anything in the media when they just screw it up so badly! Earlier in the week Katie Couric opened the Today Show with a blurb about the administration selling our ports to the Arabs. If someone wants to run with that and quote her that still doesn't even come close to what is going on!

"At the same time Bush was telling us to go out and shop"

Well this is pretty much what I have heard him say repeatedly.

So when I see someone on the Matthews show or any other saying Bush has been telling us to be afraid - it's just b.s. nicely referred to as "spin". Somehow in our political culture TRUTH is no longer part of the equation. Lies are expected.

The other problem I have with certain blathering bobblehead politicos is that it is a fact that people who lie as a lifestyle truly believe everyone else does too. They don't even think of it as lying, it's just politics. They are in both parties. And if we get a third party they will be there too!

This whole port issue may be a very good thing in the long run! But I want to hear Democrats start saying something about CHINESE and others doing the same in other ports! China is still a communist country, still opposed to every value we say we hold dear - except of course profit.

It is time the American people force the point and get their representatives doing their jobs!

and for anyone with internet security concerns you should NOT use your default email address with your ISP for online activities! Get a hotmail or yahoo etc. and come up with a moniker. And when you are on another website use a different I.D. Yahoo and Hotmail allow you something like 4 different ones.

It took me about 10 minutes to locate a new blogger here - name, year of birth, street address, political history, politcial present, occupation, high school attended, special personal interests.

This is seriously risky stuff because maps.com will give you driving directions to the front door and help you plan the trip turn by turn, hour by hour. There are several sites with arial views of your house/apartment building, including one the U.S. government maintains.

Wondering how much risk you are at?
Go to any search engine and type in your online name or your email address and see what everyone else can see!

"The Jebel Ali Free Trade Zone [Dubai] - the fifth largest in the world within a short span of ten years, has attracted over 900 international companies that include global giants - a few of these are General Motors, AEG, Aiwa, BP, Ciba, Geigy, Daewoo and Heinz."

SWIMM appointments should be real jobs but there isn't a great deal of evidence to support the notion.

I have no idea where you are getting your evidence, but I work for political appointees, and I can assure you they have real jobs with real responsibilities.

Sorry to dissuade you, but I heard Cheney say the following:

"Because if we make the wrong choice,'' Mr. Cheney said in Des Moines in that calm baritone, "then the danger is that we'll get hit again. That we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind-set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war.''

Sounds pretty clear to me.

Well, after 9-11, we had government hearings, committee recommendations, a new DHS, AND A NEW PROCESS TO VET FOREIGN INTERESTS ON OUR SOIL. Now, all of a sudden, some people wake up to the facts and have the knee-jerk reaction that we CAN'T vet foreigners properly, so they panic. Well, it's too late! They should have thought about this before. The White House did. Be reactive is a poor mindset.

It took me about 10 minutes to locate a new blogger here - name, year of birth, street address, political history, politcial present, occupation, high school attended, special personal interests.

Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 26, 06 | 7:33 pm


Wilfwr: being a little nosy today?

Just back to read the posts... and I'm still so impressed with the vast and contradictory facts at so many people's disposal...
This is the easy question: How can anyone who's followed the news since September 11, 2001 say that the Bush-Cheney administration does anything OTHER than instill fear? They've built an entire bureaucracy on it... it was BUSH in his state of the union who referred to mushroom clouds over US soil, we've had several "false alarms" when the color-coded scare system was inched up from yellow to orange... on ANCIENT information that was discredited long before those heightened alerts were announced and then renounced...

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice have kept to the talking points that 'we're fighting in Iraq so that we don't have to fight the terrorists HERE'... another big pile of bull...

Yes, America has been duped into thinking it made the choice... but it was the Supreme Court who made the wrong choice in December 2000, and it was those Diebold voting machines, those excessive 10-hour + lines in certain precincts (while there were NO lines in certain others!) and the under-the-radar
manipulators who did the deed in 2004... and the end result? THE WRONG CHOICE...

The fact that we HAVEN'T BEEN HIT AGAIN SINCE 911 gives one pause... some conspiracy theorists suggest that the Bush crime family had a hand in orchestrating the attacks!!! I've long resisted those people, but it certainly is a thinker, given the sorry state of preparedness for Katrina... they can't possibly claim that they've got anything under control after that monumental blunder... OH... and if they've thwarted so many attacks, where are the arrests and convictions? Are they all under lock and key in Gitmo?

Link, it is NEVER TOO LATE TO CORRECT LAW... that's why the constitution is called a "living" document... and NO, this bunch of thieves has no real desire to make things better for all of us... they'd rather sell out the US of A to the highest bidder and pocket the change... ($9 Billion missing from the monies sent to Iraq... stories of paying off people in cash, and then using the lame excuse that the bookkeeping systems there are not functional... an OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRY with no way to do checking? Give me a break!!!)

The 911 attacks WERE CRIMINAL ACTS... and we are NOT really at war... but we chose to start one... Following the logic these people used, when McVey bombed the Murrah building, why didn't we go and bomb his white supremicist buddies in Idaho? (Actually, that would have been more justified!!!) Our invasion in Iraq is akin to the husband beating the wife so the kid kicks the dog... NO CORRELATION WHATSOEVER!!! Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had NO RELATIONSHIP...

Frankly, and to tie up this rather rambling post, I don't want to be afraid that my city will someday have a container filled with nuclear dirty bombs ignored by a foreign port managing company, accidentally or otherwise... I'd like to see this whole issue end with ALL FOREIGN COMPANIES removed from running US Ports... no profiling... get rid of all of them!!! In that way, the responsibility for keeping the ports secure falls squarely on the shoulders of our leadership who make the decisions... and if we're safe, we can thank them... BUT if they blow it again, (the way they've blown it in 2001, and again in 2005) shame on those who chose not to get involved, and allowed it to happen again...

"I have no idea where you are getting your evidence, but I work for political appointees, and I can assure you they have real jobs with real responsibilities."

You haven't been paying attention to the White House lately?

"Sorry to dissuade you, but I heard Cheney say the following:"'

So again you misread my post because what I said was:

JZ - "Cheney was saying "if you vote for Kerry, they will strike again",

--Well that is ridiculous because they will strike again no matter who is the president." --

"being a little nosy today?"

noticed a common denominator in the handle. checked it out.

"How can anyone who's followed the news since September 11, 2001 say that the Bush-Cheney administration does anything OTHER than instill fear?"

I guess fear is a relative thing. I don't know anyone who is living in fear since 9-11.

Perhaps if I lived in New York City or any other coastal city I would have reasons to be afraid. Al-Q isn't coming after the cows.

And I can understand that anyone living in New York would never recover. My friend working at Deutchebank will never again go up into a high rise building. But she flies all the time for her job. She didn't leave the city, still lives there.

But I am not at all certain that anything the administration did or did not do would have any impact on those living in a target zone.

"They've built an entire bureaucracy on it..."

If you mean the Department of Homeland Security I think there is no argument about the bureacracy! but it is necessary. What we need is a Central Intelligence Agency - DEDICIDELY NOT THE C.I.A. as we know it. From what I read and hear there still is a lot of resistance to actual cooperation between the security agencies.

"it was BUSH in his state of the union who referred to mushroom clouds over US soil",

that is not fear-mongering, that is FACT and something that has to be taken into consideration. This is a stated goal of the enemy so why sweep it under the political rug?

'"we're fighting in Iraq so that we don't have to fight the terrorists HERE'... another big pile of bull.."

Zarquawi is poised to set up his kingdom in Iraq if he gets the opportunity. If he gets Iraq as a base of operations we will indeed be fighting here.They are already working on plans to enter the country thru our porous southern border where dark hair and brown skin won't be noticed.

On 'old' information - the 9-11 attacks were in the works for around five years. bin Laden is in no big hurry. So data 3 years old could still be viable.

"those excessive 10-hour + lines in certain precincts (while there were NO lines in certain others!) "

The management or mismanagement of voting at the precinct level is LOCAL, COUNTY and STATE controlled, not federal.

"in 2004... and the end result? THE WRONG CHOICE..."

right or wrong the LEGAL choice or the elections would have been overthrown long ago. Why did Democratic leadership just walk away if indeed there had been any actual wrong-doing?

The problem with the last election was the electoral college and it should be ended. Nobody manipulated anything, the silly system we use threw the vote to Bush.

"I've long resisted those people"

well don't flush your mind now!,

"given the sorry state of preparedness for Katrina..."

the preparedness for Katrina was in a year with 8 hurricanes that struck land, one of the biggest storms ever on record by diameter. And preparedness is a LOCAL and STATE initiative. Florida came thru okay getting hammered storm after storm after storm. The federal government is NOT responsible for keeping states safe from their reasonably anticipated disasters.

"they can't possibly claim that they've got anything under control after that monumental blunder"...

WELL OF COURSE NOT! Man will never have nature under control. The best that can be done is to reasonably anticipate it and obviously that just is an anti-human trait. Look at the number of people living on the San Andreas Fault! There is no preparation possible for "the big one". The 1989 Quake in San Francisco had the epicenter 50 MILES AWAY. Imagine a direct quake. The entire Denver metro area is surrounded by massive earthen dams with huge reservoirs behind them - built over earthquake faults. Some disasters ARE predictable!

"if they've thwarted so many attacks, where are the arrests and convictions?"

The attacks thwarted have been interventions in other countries. I don't think there have been any here EXCEPT in OHIO LAST WEEK!

"they'd rather sell out the US of A to the highest bidder and pocket the change..."

well don't hold your breath for any Democratic administration to do any better. Politics is politics.

"stories of paying off people in cash"

Well while this isn't the American way it is very much the way things are done in the middle east. That whole ridiculous flap over the stories paid for in the Iraqi papers - that is how stories get into the papers there. They don't depend on advertising the way we do.

"an OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRY with no way to do checking? Give me a break!!!)"

You think Sadaam had some IRS keeping accurate records on the oil for food money he was stealing? If there was no system in place they have to build one.

"The 911 attacks WERE CRIMINAL ACTS."..

WRONG!!! Knocking down the WTC was a criminal act. Blowing up the Pentagon - a military target, not to mention a goverment building in our nation's capitol,- was an ACT OF WAR by every definition in every book.

"when McVey bombed the Murrah building,"

McVey was a citizen of the United States, not a foreign national, commiting a terrorist act within his own country. He was also an individual working with only a couple of accomplices - no army.

"his white supremicist buddies in Idaho?"

Better duck! Rightwing BobbyGee, Ace and Link may come after you on this!!! There you are dissing the good people of Idaho :)

"Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had NO RELATIONSHIP... "

let's take this adagio - Sadaam Mutual was offering payment to any family that could produce a suicide bomber - that is directly sponsoring terrorism. One of the Al-Q top operatives lived safely in Baghdad. Sadaam had a history of using WsMD. It is ridiculous to assume he didn't have them. It makes a lot more sense that they are in Syria. We have satellite photos of the Iraqis going out the back doors right ahead of the U.N. inspectors going in the front doors- driving off in covered trucks. They were taking their lunches with them?

So... we have options- we can pull out of Iraq at any time we choose. We can turn Sadaam loose and even set him back up in business. We just all sort of have this sense that it would be the wrong thing to do. Thousands of expatriat Iraqis begged the United Nations for three decades to help them get their country back. They have it back and they deserve a chance to succeed.

SWIMM "I work for political appointees, and I can assure you they have real jobs with real responsibilities."

if these are the same bosses who you have stated encourage you to surf the internet on government time and even to blog then I think you just made the case.

"I don't want to be afraid that my city will someday have a container filled with nuclear dirty bombs ignored by a foreign port managing company, accidentally or otherwise"

SECURITY OF THE PORTS IS NOT GOING TO BE CONDUCTED BY THE FOREIGN MANAGEMENT! WE REMAIN RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.

Your fear is very real and after 9-11 you should be afraid. But blaming the government isn't going to reduce the risk of living on the vulnerable east coast.

Opening every container is not going to make you safe. It only takes one.

"I'd like to see this whole issue end with ALL FOREIGN COMPANIES removed from running US Ports... no profiling... get rid of all of them!!! "

YES YES YES YES AND YES

So I hope you have contacted your reps and demanded this! The politicians in D.C. are spooking on this one because people are emailing and calling and writing.

So far I have yet to hear even one word out of D.C. on the other countries managing the other 114 ports under these contracts! 1/3 of our 360 ports...

We all live with calculated risk no matter where we are. Gulf residents and East Coast have the hurricanes and always will. People in the Mississippi valley can worry that the New Madrid Fault is waking up after a century or so of no activity, nevermind the floods. Living on the San Andreas is just nuts but millions do. In fact living in southern California is risky business. It's one thing after another there. The mountain states have the wildfires most of which are caused by lightning strikes and George Bush hasn't done real well in managing the lightning either! People in Kansas have to dodge the tornados.

Is there some sort of consolation in knowing nature might take you out as opposed to an attack? I don't think so.

The most vulnerable areas of any nation are the coastlines and over 1/2 of our population lives within 50 miles of a coast. But I don't think everyone is moving inland. And if the midwest filled up with coastal refugees seeking safe asylum where would your food come from?

The best policy is to "bloom where you're planted".

Those who put their faith in the government - any government - are always going to be disappointed.

BobbyGee, your "Perry" impersonation was a pretty good first effort. To get in the spirit though, you might try tightening your tin foil hat just a little more.......I think Perry will be very "disppointed" in you.......

I liked it when she turned on her own comrades last week. I liked it even more when they thought her spelling/grammar improved in her attack on them. LOL

Ace, don't hold your breathe, but it's possible you could nominated to join the Cold and Ugly Hearts Club after surviving the withering attacks from the Ivy League tree chopper/firebug/backhoe operator extraordinaire. Isn't it wonderful that these erudite, educated, compassionate liberals can call you an "Ace-hole" and still put on airs and act offended?

Saddam has finally given up on his 11-day hunger strike. No one cared. Good riddance. Maybe OBL, Zarchowi and the rest of their crew can join him next time.

Wow, montego, maybe Saddam had to deny his hunger strike in order to accept it!

Ace: Nutman is not a real fake, he's just faking being real. Paranoia is apparently hereditary. "Grew up on a military base being watched". If he and his mother were "being watched" you can be sure there was good cause. Reading his posts, I can easily imagine his mother probably participated in anti-military demonstrations as a 'flower-child' . Or she ranted and raved while snapping at the hand that fed her and her family. Hard to tell. But maybe nutman will remove his wolf's clothing and show us he's really a sheep and divulge all. Pretty soon he'll earn an endorsement by Serta.

You say "you can imagine" and he turns it into an accusation of a CRIME. More evidence of paranoia.

Anyone can google New Mexico+sheep and see that the nutman doesn't know everything about his specie or his state. Apparently being an Ivy League graduate doesn't mean you know everything, only enough to prove your ignorance. Just 'cuz you are one, doesn't make you one. Or does it ? Is he faking being real or really faking it ?

More evidence of nutman paranoia. If you quote a person from history you become like that person. Quoting Marx makes you communist. Quoting Ezra Pound makes you a nazi poet. Quoting Goering makes you a just plain nazi. Quoting Ted Kennedy makes you..... Well, you get my drift.

Living in Montana is not so bad. According to some it may be better than Idaho. And the bonus is Mark Furman didn't move here so that didn't make us all freako-nazis. Thank God Jeffrey Dahmer isn't from Montana or we would all be murderous cannibals. By the way, where was Dahmer from ? Wisconsin ?

montego: Ace is definitely a candidate and I will nominate him at the next meeting.

paul: Deal or No Deal ? Don't make me come after you ! This my final offer.

It is interesting to note that "Is This The Last Straw" is dissolving as a topic on the blog and drifting closer to the classified pages in the MSM. Once again the Democrats and the media thought they had a real live 'gotcha'. Even the spineless tin man Republican politicians quaked in their boots as they envisioned votes heading south. The issue wasn't the real sticking point. Lost votes take precedence over all issues upon which the collection of clowns euphemistically called Congress bases its concern. The hullabaloo reached major crescendo before even political sharks like Clinton and left wing communists, er I mean columnists, let their brains kick in.

Now that everyone has their knee jerk under control, it appears the issue is relegated to a '45 day' review. Hopefully that will give the fearful who claim George Bush is a fearmonger time to empty their boots, change their diapers and approach the issue with reasonableness and rationality.

(Resident bloggers who have never demonstrated the virtues of reasonableness and rationality are excused. Don't want to upset your comfort level. ;^)

GeeBobby, you're in high form today I see. But if you keep making accusations about sheep, someone might question your expertise on the subject.

Not sure if Dahmer was actually from Wisconsin, but he lived in a big city. Ain't no way somebody like that could hide in my home town. He'd a been accidentally shot while quail hunting long before he could fill his freezer. Only the boys back home don't use bird shot to shoot birds, so he actually woulda died...eventually (they don't always aim real good either).

jz88keys, I hereby dub you Jazzy.

I heard that the key to good communication is brevity. Jazzy and Weird, y'all might wanna try it sometime. Though it's nice to see people communicating instead of throwing internet meatballs at each other.

A thought for thinkin' about: A discussion seeks WHAT is right; an argument seeks WHO is right.

Later y'all.

Oh, and Paul, I loved your comment about Saddam's hunger strike! Fun-ny!

For you, Shrew...
I'm 'left"... so never need to be "right"... and still impressed with all of the spinning, Wldflwr... wow, do you feel safe... and are you confident that everything done is done 'right'... guess you can also call me the eternal SKEPTIC... although I'm not from Missouri... I'm in a "SHOW ME" state...

BobbyGee: Personally, I think he has hepatitis from all those sheep. That would explain most of the posts. But I don’t want to get sued for defamation from a real person who is a fake as you say. So do you guys have a Sgt at Arms yet for the Ugly Hearts Club meetings?

"By the way, where was Dahmer from ? Wisconsin ?"

Dahmer was from Milwaukee. Get out a map. Milwaukee is barely even in the state. Nobody in the state actually claims the place! It's a big sprawling city. Even Madison looks small town by comparison. Nope, the rest of the state wouldn't really claim anything but maybe the beer and the Harleys. Even their state fair isn't the only state fair. When the musical "State Fair" was written, the bit about "our state fair is the best state fair in our state" they thought it was a joke. There are THREE STATE FAIRS in Wisconsin.

BOBBYGEE

"Now that everyone has their knee jerk under control,"

You know now they have a pill for that.

Other than your mistaking Milwaukee for Wisconsin and your inexplicable sensitivity over all things aryan-nazi-kkk and Idaho, the 11:27 has good points about our representatives!

My query to the Clinton Library @ internships

To Clinton Library staff:

I am interested in applying for an internship with the Clinton Library.
What are the criteria for one to qualify.

Thank You.

Spotted Eagle Boy
Corra Camino, NM

*Let's see what kind of response I get.*

ACE, Your application will go to recycle bin.

Should have input Spotted Eagle Girl , with a yearning to suckseed.

JZ "wow, do you feel safe..."

Yes I do but then I don't put my faith in frail mankind and our institutions including and especially goverment. I also don't live near a seashore and if they hit Chicago the prevailing winds blow away from here. Twin Cities is iffy depending on the day.

"are you confident that everything done is done 'right'..."

I am watching for the chinks, and the actual Katrina chinks are just coming to light in some cases. I also think there is precious little time on this one to sit around conferencing to fix blame because the sea temperature in the southern corridor of the Atlantic has remained high.

I think Brown's remarks are running around half-truth. But his most recent comment in his NBC interview about telling the President the devastation and population displacement in New Orleans was 90% rings true because the response was incredulous and shortly thereafter Bush left D.C. and went down to meet Nagin to see for himself and as he said, he wasn't hearing the truth. Now we know who was glossing things over to the President- start with Chertoff.

You don't know you are being deceived till something happens and truth slaps you across the face.

Those who are caught up in the politics forget the humanity of these situations. Mrs. Blanco can be on camera and cry out of frustration and anger and grief for her state. The President of the United States - ANY AND EVERY PRESIDENT - can't do that. He can't shout angry epithets like Nagin who was only a mayor, he can't wipe tears from his face like Blanco, and he can't divulge publicly which rats have been trapped back at the White House. He also doesn't have time to fire and nominate and vet people to fill gaps between now and June.

"you can also call me the eternal SKEPTIC... "

GOOD! we need skeptics to keep things balanced! ... so long as you can keep your balance. The real problems are the pie-in-the-sky people who just know if we put a nice Democrat in the White House the big nasty scarey world will go away.

IF they have an infrastructure to party and act like drunken whores and pimps in New Orleans... they don't need any more Federal $$ to pay for their parties.

Cut them off... no more free Federal $$'s

ACE "I think he has hepatitis from all those sheep."

If you want to slam people effectively you have to do your homework! Otherwise you come across as totally clueless to begin with. Sheep are not susceptible to Hepatitis - you vaccinate them annually for Vibrio, Clostridium Chauvoei-Septicum, Haemolyticum-Novvyi, Tetani-Perfringens types C&D Bacterin-Toxoid.

"But I don’t want to get sued for defamation from a real person who is a fake as you say."

You are really on thin ice with yourself then. Since you don't seem to know how to actually do anything on your computer except read BobbyGee's posts you are putting a lot on the line on the assumption he's telling it like it is. Very shakey ground.

The courts have already determined that slander isn't slander on a blog which is an opinion. However, you destroy your credibility being a bleating sheep just following along unthinking. By the way if you stay in the line behind everyone else the view never changes. And remember it's BobbyGee who lives in Montana.

ACE are you trying to get yourself arrested? You send a spam email to the Clinton Library? That's harrassment. Good grief you know squat about that computer. Your URL can be identified in a heartbeat. Your response could be a knock on your door.

I don't see what the fuss is over the President, the Sec Def, or the other Secretaries not knowing about this. It was the job of agencies and under Secretaries to look at this. I hear form the news that more poeple are coming to the President's side on this issue. Interesting what facts can do to a story.

Ace, you are partially correct, it is syphilis you get from sheep. Right Wildflower?

I don't see what the fuss is over the President, the Sec Def, or the other Secretaries not knowing about this. It was the job of agencies and under Secretaries to look at this. I hear form the news that more poeple are coming to the President's side on this issue. Interesting what facts can do to a story.

Ace, you are partially correct, it is syphilis you get from sheep. Right Wildflower?

LINK solid stance, sound moral stance. Did you tell this to your Congressman and your Senators?

With regard to this issue I do not pretend to have any expertise on how ports are managed or any insightful knowledge of the contract concerning the running of the ports by the UAE based company. The objection to this deal as I understand it is that the UAE having been friendly to terrorists (including Al Quaeda) in the past would acquire per force knowledge of our port security procedures. Such knowledge would allow them to facilitate transportation of weapons (especially nuclear- dirty bombs?) into the United States to enable terrorist attacks in our country.

I suppose the plausibility of this fear has been enhanced by the relentless traitorous attacks by the “unfriendlies” (i.e. mainstream media, Democrats, & liberals) which has compromised our national security. Does anyone doubt that the revelations such as (a) that we had prisons in Europe to contain certain terrorists; (b) the warrentless wiretaps between suspected terrorists abroad and residents in the United States have had the effect of making our intelligence gathering of terrorists activity more difficult. If we (by “we” I mean the general perception amongst the citizenry) had more confidence in our intelligence gathering abilities this fear story would have “no legs”.

As a self confessed “goose-stepping Bushbot” (for example I actually think that President Bush walks on water but I am sanguine enough to know that this is so because he knows where the stepping stones are) my bottom line is that if the President says there is no security problem in this deal then that assurance is good enough for me. Admittedly the most troublesome aspect of this controversy is that “ex” (and we do not use this designation often enough) President Carter approves of this deal. Well I guess Carter could not stomach the patent hypocrisy necessary to oppose this deal. Carter’s main thesis of his opposition to President Bush has been that we have no international support in our war on terror & if we are to prevail in Iraq we must have some Arab support.

Of course hypocrisy is no evil whatsoever amongst most Democrats especially when attacking the Bush administration. This explains why Sen Charles Schumer (D-NY) can with a straight face now advocate that Halliburton should have been awarded this contract despite having demonized (a standard Dem “talking point”) that company constantly ever since Dick Cheney became the Vice President candidate in 2000.

WldFlwr: I wanted to get more opinion here first.

& I don't want to sound like our liberal moon-bat friends.

Unpoor: good post & on topic too.

Link, the fact that we didn't "sell" anything is essentially irrelevant. The Secretary of the Treasury is attempting to broker a "sweetheart deal" for his former company and may well wind up compromising the security of the nation at the cost of uncounted lives. Look up Broker in the dictionary.

Wild, Ace is not clueless. That is your friend from the east coast who has two names: czarina and cjk(pretend attorney).

Unpoor, if I remember it correctly from National Geographic, you are correct about the disease that Ivy Leaguers contract from their wooly friends.

Wldflwr, we are indeed at war with a large number of muslims. Just look at the nonsense resulting from a muslim cleric's use of lies and deceit to exploit those harmless Danish cartoons. Do you really think that all the mindless morons in all those demostrations are terrorists? Finally, terrorist organizations are founded, funded, trained and equipped by muslim NATIONS too morally bankrupt to make war honestly. Terrorism will neither be beaten nor destroyed until the NATIONS sponsoring them are destroyed. PERIOD! No amount of fantasy, foolishness or moderation will suffice. Cowardice, wishfull thinking and moderation do not win wars.

unpoor: A Saudi Arabian company already controls 9 US Ports in and near America:
Marine Terminals in Baltimore, MD Halifax, Canada, Newport News VA Houston ,TX , New Orleans LA, St. John, Canada, Savannah, GA, Wilmington, NC, Port Newark, NJ Brooklyn, NY.

Now Hillary decides it is a problem... she is a phony.

Ace, if he sues you for defamation, you could hire cjk/czr to represent you...if you want to lose. Also, remember that you can defend such a suit by arguing that the plaintiff's reputation was so bad to begin with that it could not possibly be made worse by your comment.

A zoonotic disease is a disease that can be transmitted from animals to humans. Here are the zoonotic sheep diseases.

Sore Mouth (Contagious Ecthyma, Orf)-This viral disease causes lesions on the lips of naive sheep. **so gentlemen don't go kissing your Montana woolies on the mouth**

Cryptosporidia -Cryptosporidia is a very small internal parasite of the intestine that causes diarrhea ** you can also catch this by drinking from those pure Colorado Rocky Mountain springwater creeks you see in the Coors commercials.**

Salmonella ** have the little woman spray the counter with a clorine spray after cutting up the chicken**

Toxoplasmosis **you can get this cleaning the kitty litter box**

Q-Fever-Q-Fever is a disease caused by Coxiella burnetii. This is a very small reckettsial organism that is harbored by normal, healthy sheep. **so be real careful handling the lambs who can carry it**

Campylobacter -Campylobacter infection in humans in the number one cause of food-borne illness generally from consuming undercooked meat.
**cook that meat WELL DONE**

Tetanus **get your shots**

Ringworm (Dermatophytosis) **kids bring it home from school**

OH MY GOODNESS Link and Ace - no STDs here. Well you will have to get your syphillis and hepatitis somewhere else.

DrDarryl
I saw a documentary on the Japanese internment camps during WWII yesterday. It solidified my opinion that we ought to allow the UAE to have the ports. Just because someone looks like the enemy doesn't mean they are.
And don't give me all this stuff that they did PRE 9-11. Every country in the world took a lackadaisical view toward Al Qaida and Bin Laden before 9-11. Every country, including the USA, is guilty of associating with or not prosecuting known terrorists, pre-9-11.

What really matters is whose attitudes have changed since 9-11?

Paul, people are just as interested in what you have to say as who finished 5th in the olympic donut tossing competition.

Perry, I believe that you are an english teacher and a union leader. It all fits. Alas, I rather wish you knew how to think and write clearly, but one cannot expect everything, I guess. English teachers who neither know how to spell nor write are all too fitting for the NEA. How sad.

Montego: I am not really interested in hiring a couple second rate law clerks.

DrDarryl, there is no such thing as a nation making war "honestly." Any country has to be morally bankrupt to think that war is a replacement for dispute resolution by peacefeul negotations. Those who support Bush's war on Iraq are just as morally bankrupt.

Well link, I hope you don't live near one of those ports. That is very likely how Iran will attempt to slip nuclear warheads into the U.S. When it happens, remember, you were warned.

GrgDols, the europeans have been doing it for centuries. One declares war and then gets after winning same. There is no such thing as "resolution by negotiations" when one is dealing with criminal maniacs and fanatics. "Bush's war in Iraq" is only the beginning. Just wait until the festivities really get going.

Link, I agree with you about New Orleans. They got all our tax money and now they're spending it on massive quantities of booze and hookers. Ingrates. They also lack class.

By the time a container with nuclear warheads aboard arrives in an american port facility, it will be too late. Such a container must be detected before it reaches an american port. An 80 megaton blast in New Jersey would still accomplish the terrorist's goals.

Yessir, Bobby, New Orleans certainly knows how to spend everyone else's money!

Dr D. Maybe San Francisco...that would be a great start.

IF they have an infrastructure to party and act like drunken whores and pimps in New Orleans... they don't need any more Federal $$ to pay for their parties.

Cut them off... no more free Federal $$'s
Posted by: link on Feb 27, 06 | 4:19 pm


You're delusional. They're not acting.

People: Lets just keep in mind that it was G.W. Bush that caused Katrina and flooded the city.

Him and every white republican in the country.

UNPOOR "I do not pretend to have any expertise on how ports are managed"

Don't feel badly because nobody else does either particularly those in Congress but they intend to learn by November.

good post UNPOOR!

DARRYL "The Secretary of the Treasury is attempting to broker a "sweetheart deal" for his former company and may well wind up compromising .."

Ain't gonna happen. Too late and too much disclosure. The cat is out of the bag. Ever try to put cats back into the bag?

MONTEGO do read my post above on zoonotic diseases of sheep if only to protect yourself.

As much as I like the National Geographic they are sometimes WRONG like the article on Denmark that mentioned their "Great" dogs. Great Danes are not from Denmark, they are Deutchedoggen - bear hounds from Germany.

DARRYL -"Do you really think that all the mindless morons in all those demostrations are terrorists?"

I have said it repeatedly, the mindless morons are uneducated, unemployed and likely being paid so no, none of them are terrorists. But they are being manipulated by the terrorists.

Muslim NATIONS are not financing Al KIEDA. Except for Iran and Syria the Muslim nations are also targets! Whose blood do you see splattered all over your TV screen? The muslim nations that could afford to finance this are in the bullseye.

Syria will back down diplomatically but we don't stand any chance of destroying Iran and particularly not with our good ally Russia on their side and the Indians and Pakistanis signing the deal with Iran for a joint pipeline.

"No amount of fantasy, foolishness or moderation will suffice."

AGREED but the fantasy is yours! So you might want to consider concertina wire, spots, a few really good dogs, and some missiles. and don't forget your duct tape and plastic!

LINK - Your list include the 6 Dubai is working on getting, that P&O has had on contract for five years? Otherwise,
good sleuthing, now who manages the other 105 and which ones do the Chinese have on contract?????

"Now Hillary decides it is a problem... she is a phony."

What about the other 199 Senators who suddenly decided this is a problem? and those 400 however many Congressmen? If she is a phony they all are.

Can you name any Republicans who have brought this to the fore in the last five years????

Attn Chicken littles: worried yet??

But it’s funny that our one party media hasn’t mentioned this Saudi-owned company, NSCSA, or its operation in even more ports than the UAE will have a berth.

Maybe the press don’t know about them, as the company’s only been around since 1979. And of course the longshoremen’s and DNC’s press releases, which they regurgitate verbatim, haven’t mentioned them:



The National Shipping Company of Saudi Arabia

Owners

Government of Saudi Arabia, Saudi individuals and establishments

Head Office Riyadh, KSA

The National Shipping Company of Saudi Arabia (NSCSA) was established in 1979 to meet the transportation needs of Importers and Exporters in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East.

And look at the ports where they control berths:



Marine Terminals

Baltimore, MD

Halifax, Canada

Newport News, VA

Houston, TX

New Orleans, LA

St. John, Canada

Houston, Texas

Savannah, GA

Wilmington, NC

Port Newark, NJ

Brooklyn, NY

hi jz88keys, its grate to see another Democrat here and I agree because i Think your were saying that the other reason taht SenatorKerry is nt president today other than bush and his haliburtion creeps stole the electioral votes was the mnistake of putting lieberman a zionist on the ticker with him, even here where we blindly poor tons of money to isreal people utlimately know its a huge mistake and wast of resource when we have people starving and dieing in Newolrleans right here at home, and zionism just is not popular philsopophically here in this country too. All right mtnman just what is construct anway???? Does that mean i look diffrent or what or have magic power or what>???? I think you have reallygood idea on most teh time but as person your not very nice to your suppoters here in the blog, here I got something to tell you bobbyG, listen to this you are not fgunny at all, you dont make any sense and mocking the likes of medoes not earn you any brownpoiints on here. Bobby you are just ona typicl mind numbed robotic rush limbog follower and bush pup[pet, you are not contrbuting anything worsewhile to the disucssions here! you were probablu homeshcooled, so I guess you cant help what you are, a christian fundmental republican.

What makes you think in the end that we will have any choice but to destroy Iran and Russia as well, if they should choose to get seriously in the way, wldflwr?

Wldwr: It's also about Bush's political adversaries trying to make him look weak on the issue, while they themselves share much of the blame.

VERY interesting, unpoor... so in fact, you're disclosing that this wonderful group will soon have not ONE but TWO fragile middle eastern countries in charge of managing a huge number of our ports... could it be that, once again, it is the "Bush crime family" at work? Remember, Bush 41 headed the CIA, was then VP for eight years, and was then president for 4 more... lots of time to set up those sweetheart deals for family friends!!!

Perry, it's spelled "Great". Grate is a grille placed over an opening to prevent objects of an inappropriate size from passing through. (Sigh)

jz88=Chicken Little

GrgDols "Any country has to be morally bankrupt to think that war is a replacement for dispute resolution by peacefeul negotations."

A lovely platitude. Done any historical reading recently on the human race not to mention other large primates? The lowland gorilla stands a better chance of peaceful negotiations.

To have peaceful negotiations you have to have an enemy who is (1) peaceful and (2) wants to negotiate. Al Keiduh is not nor do they want to.

UNPOOR give us the CHINESE managed ports please! also Taiwan and Singapore.

I am not chicken little... I am the voice of reality... and the sky may indeed fall if we fail to act...

DARRYL Iran has no motivation to nuke America. Why would they bother?

"What makes you think in the end that we will have any choice but to destroy Iran and Russia as well, if they should choose to get seriously in the way, wldflwr?"

We don't have the capability to do it. Seen a map lately? And we are not more than an also-ran nation when things heat up in the Holy Land - not a bad place to be by the way. Keep watching Israel and Palestine. This whole Iran thing is a handy smokescreen.

JZ88 that is not what UNPOOR is saying, he is saying these ports are already under Saudi management. Only these 6 are in the P&O deal with Dubai. AGAIN - there are 360 ports and 1/3 of them which is 120 of them are already under foreign contracts.

"lots of time to set up those sweetheart deals for family friends!!!"

After the appalling display of nepotism in the Johnson administration that set up the president's WIFE I think the Democrats have no room to criticize the Republicans for the same thing. Remember Sealand shipping and the radio stations!

okay 6 + 9 = 15 ports. We need 105 more identified.

Mardi Gras takes place mainly in the French quarter, the area that wasn't as impacted by the flooding. The city has suffered for 6 months, should they never be allowed to celebrate again? Besides tourism is a huge part of their income, they need events like this to keep their economy going. Those who have been displaced and are homeless are not the "drunken" celebrants, they still need the funds to feed their families and rebuild their lives.

From ABC news:
"The carnival has been canceled only 13 times in its 200 year history, and many say this should have been the 14th time.

But Mardi Gras hasn't been canceled since the Korean War, and the city made a calculated business decision to let the good times roll.

City leaders point to all the revenue Mardi Gras generates — an estimated $1 billion in a normal year, a large chunk of the region's $5.5 billion annual tourism industry. City officials estimate this year the city will take in about $300 million. They say some of that money will eventually help neighborhoods like the Ninth Ward to rebuild.

"It's a kick-start for the tourism economy," said Sandra Shilstone, CEO of New Orleans Tourism Corp. "And this industry, pre-Katrina, hired 85,000 of the nearly 500,000 people here in this city of New Orleans."

It is not so much about drawing crowds this year, as attendance is significantly down, but about showing off the city and hoping the tourists flock back next year and beyond. "

Why are you guys condemning people who are just trying to get beyond this tragedy?

Why Perry I guess you missed the coverage of the Mardi Gras parades. Nobody dying and starving in New Orleans this week! It's party time!!!

Only 52 spelling, punctuation and capitalization errors this time. Of course the post is shorter than your previous one. Your run-on sentences were difficult to discern for your lack of punctuation.

One would think an English teacher would know how to use a dictionary to find out what a "construct" is. Hint - it's a noun, not a verb.

And no it doesn't mean you look different. Although, come to think of it one does wonder if you have a reflection in a mirror.

I hope you don't read the New York Times, Perry, because the owners ARE the big bucks Zionists pouring millions into Israel. You wouldn't want to support their cause.

Zionism is indeed a VERY POPULAR PHILOSOPHY here in this country! Overall, Americans support Israel.

rush limbog - that's Rush Limbaugh

worsewhile - worthwhile

" a christian fundmental republican."

Perry, Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with being a Republican or a Democrat. And you keep forgetting that all of your heroes - Bill and Hillary and Kerry and Tedward are professed CHRISTIANS. They all attend church and pray on a regular basis.

"The city has suffered for 6 months, should they never be allowed to celebrate again? "

Of course they should but nobody wants tax dollars poured into a city that markets itself for its debauchery. Perhaps that will not be the case now. Near death experiences change people so they could also change a city.

It was a crime that the $300 Million per month income never seemed to reach into the 9th Ward. And last figure I saw was that only 1/3 of the people returned.

I think if they can rebuild their tourist trade they can recover. I am not, however, in favor of rebuilding anything below sea level. They could do as those towns along the Mississippi did and build on the higher ground while returning the "bowl" to its natural state. The old French Quarter is on high ground - not a problem and it would make it even more unique.

This is the first substantial shot they have had at bringing in some serious money. So it's slow this year but if they aren't hit again this summer or fall they stand a good chance of a gradual recovery.

I think they just need to clean up their act and this is a great opportunity for them to do so!

So we should be making judgements about the moral standards of communities before they are allowed federal funding? Whose yardstick shall we use?

We do agree on your Feb.27 /4:15 pm post DrD. And I said the same over a year ago. You know ? When you ain't spinning you make sence.
You just don't get it Wldflr; It don't matter who's doing it or who did it . It's being done now by the Bush boys and will destroy the U.S. This isn't a fight in the school yard . He did it first teacher !
Because they are redneck hillbillys , colorme purple thats why .

WldFlwr sure knows about sheep ! Sounds like a veterinarian, a vet tech or a sheep rancher. No wonder she regards nutman so highly and has 'vetted' him as a good guy.

Ace: I'm the sergeant-at-arms. Now, the Ivy Leaguers like to call it sargeant-at-arms. montego is secretary/treasurer.

swimmom: Thanks for the tip on a unique view on WWII by WldFlwr. I did miss it. Sorting through the posts isn't easy. Incredible isn't it ? I'm at a loss to even respond to such an assertion as I'm sure it would be a waste of time.

Bobby Gee: I'd be willing to clean the ash trays at the end of the meetings!

The city has suffered for 6 months, should they never be allowed to celebrate again? Posted by: colormepurple on Feb 27, 06 | 6:25 pm


They have $$ to party they have enough dollars to clean up. It is a waste to spend tax dollars on a bunch of drunks.

Think she'll get re-elected?
Quote:

NV Dem Skips Hurricane Katrina Vote To Have Neck Lift
Mon Feb 27 2006 09:39:45 ET

Skipping last fall’s vote on the Hurricane Katrina relief bill in order to get plastic surgery was worth it, says Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.), who loves her new look, ROLL CALL reports.

“For the last couple of years whenever I was on TV all I could do was look at my neck,” Berkley said in a recent online audio interview. “It was driving me crazy because my neck was starting to hang ... and it was making me very self conscious.”

Now, she joked in an interview with hosts of the Vegas-centric podcast show “The Strip,” “I have the neck of a 20-year-old and a 50-year-old body.” Until the Feb. 16 program, Berkley hadn’t said much about missing the September vote on the Katrina relief bill due to her nip-and-tuck job.

Berkley, 55, told the show’s co-hosts, Steve Friess and Miles Smith, “I decided that it was going to be very hard to hide and I’m a very public person.” And let’s face it, she said, that brilliant plastic surgeon “turned back the clock 10 years.”

Friess cracked Berkley up when he asked whether she thinks she’ll get more votes with her youthful, thinner neck. She laughed and said, “The 20-somethings! Maybe this will get them out to vote.”

http://drudgereport.com/flash7.htm

COLORME "So we should be making judgements about the moral standards of communities before they are allowed federal funding? Whose yardstick shall we use?"

sticky wicket of course but the yardstick is the moral foundation of the majority of the population of the United States who are the taxpayers.

Since when do the taxpayers in this country have to foot everyone else's lifestyle?

You can make all the judgements you want when you are writing the checks.

We could, of course, open the floodgates to anything goes and just support everyone, recognize no standards of behavior. Let's just pay for everything without making any judgements at all!

But can we then set aside moral judgements in favor of GOOD SENSE and refuse to rebuild cities below sea-level, on earthquake faults, in floodplains?

told you BobbyGee - the only sheepherder on here. Registered Southdowns.

Well I am so pleased for you that you don't mind the fact that after we had so many of our young men slaughtered in France they turned around and started up co-mingled military units with Germany.

And isn't it great how the U.S. steel industry and coal industry both went bellyup when Germany started shipping us their preformed steel?

And Polaroid is out of business. Kodak is on the verge of collapse. Fuji film is cheaper and just as good.

So why was it all the men your age went off to Korea and watched your friends die? and so many of you came home mangled from wounds?

Did you see the Koreans march into the Olympics together? Bet you were proud.

I wonder if one could be considered gay if he quoted Truman Capote or Oscar Wilde

Watch your quotes folks ;^)

ACE I hereby formally and respectfully defer and pass to you my previous position as President, Chairman, whatever. Couldn't possibly consider attending an event with ashtrays - yuck!

BobbyGee,

Your comment:

"Don't make me come after you ! This my final offer."

What are you talking about: your final offer?

Is there a negotiation going on?

I note your threat.

I have recorded your threat.

I have alerted others to it.

My god, Man, seek help!

Maybe you're thinking too much about sheep.

God knows why!

Thanks for the heads up about ONE-THIRD of our ports under foreign control... how disconcerting... how DANGEROUS... how totally UN-AMERICAN!!!
We don't need just 45 days... we need total housekeeping!!! Let's not play the blame game... let's just FIX the darn thing...
(Hmmmm perhaps we should outsource the president's secret service to UAE or Saudi Arabia, if they're just that trustworthy!!!)

Wild, would you condemn an entire community, based on the behavior of some? Should babies go without formula, or old folks be left to live in a cardboard box because others in their community are partying?

"By PAMELA HESS
UPI Pentagon Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 (UPI) -- A United Arab Emirates government-owned company is poised to take over port terminal operations in 21 American ports, far more than the six widely reported.

The Bush administration has approved the takeover of British-owned Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Co. to DP World, a deal set to go forward March 2 unless Congress intervenes.

P&O is the parent company of P&O Ports North America, which leases terminals for the import and export and loading and unloading and security of cargo in 21 ports, 11 on the East Coast, ranging from Portland, Maine to Miami, Florida, and 10 on the Gulf Coast, from Gulfport, Miss., to Corpus Christi, Texas, according to the company's Web site. ……"


http://upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060223-051657-4981r




For people with so much time on their hands, able to post incessantly, and ad nauseam, you sure don't have a clue as to how to research and keep up-to-date with the news. (Notice the date - 3 days old!)



And WldFlwr, skip your direct comments. I do not care whether you approve of my posts or not. Save your breath (typing) for your pals BG, montego, unpoor, link, and the like.

"Thanks for the heads up about ONE-THIRD of our ports under foreign control... how disconcerting... how DANGEROUS... how totally UN-AMERICAN!!!"

TRUE and Americans everywhere of every disposition and political bent are furious as they find out!

"Saudi Arabia, if they're just that trustworthy!!!"

Well apparently they are that good! So yeah maybe we should :) They aren't getting their pipelines and facilities blown up. Yep, the terrorists did get thru the gate the other day - in a few thousand pieces!

We HAVE to put this bipolarization nonsense aside to just fix it.

The fact this has been going on for a couple of decades is enfuriating. Where were the Congressmen and the Senators and cabinet members who all knew this? And the unions....

My message to my congressman was NO FOREIGN MANAGEMENT OF ANY OF OUR PORTS!

The big question is whether there are OUT CLAUSES in those contracts in the event the people actually find out about it! This is SO beyond a partisan issue!

my information is NBC and usually AP

So cza, would you agree that again, we're in the midst of a COVERUP? Seems to me that the big bruhaha was about the six MAJOR ports... but the talking heads weren't being too honest when questioned about this...

Well, what a surprise... I just love the transparency of this wonderful cadre of thieves and snake-oil salesmen...

Some free country...

Wldflwr...

Where were the Congressmen and the Senators and cabinet members who all knew this? And the unions....
You're talking PRE 911... As long as there was money to be made, the deals were done... I believe that the main reason was to keep the oil flowing... (and remember that those profiteers only recently had their contribution influence scaled back... but still do plenty of favor-purchasing!!!)

The term for those "out" clauses is... NATIONALIZATION... The Saudis and Iraqis did it to our big oil companies who discovered their resources decades ago... turnabout is fair play now, don't ya think?!

and so CZA wrote in response to my comment that Deutchebank was in Tower 5:

"The fact that they might actually learn something does not enter their small, closed minds, which makes them post comments which include erroneous information (when they believe they are "educating" bloggers), as in a post referring to Tower #5 !!!! There NEVER was such a thing! They show their ignorance over and over again."

and so I subsequently posted:

"The Trade Center was never designed for the amount of emergency power necessary for all those trading floors they have there," Calabro said. "Tenants would come in and need emergency power, and it was not available."

To solve that problem, E-J Electric set four generators on the roof of Tower 5, which was nine stories, as opposed to the 110-story Towers 1 and 2. E-J then ran high-voltage feeder cable to Towers 1, 2, 4 and 5, installed three substations and distributed power to the tenants.

"We pulled 6,000 feet of high-voltage feeder cable from the roof of Tower 5, through the building, down through the concourse, through the parking garages and to the roof of Tower 1 and 2," Calabro said."


so CZA - you come on here tonight having made a complete fool of yourself in accusing me in your entirely transparant post of posting "erroneous information", commenting on my showing my "ignorance" and you have the nerve to say anything at all ?

You previously have villified others here and accused them of being clueless just because they only have friends and relatives who worked in the WTC while you actually live in the New York area! How could anyone know your pain?

You live in New York and you can say "there NEVER was such thing" as a Tower 5. To borrow your favorite expression - HOW CLUELESS IS THAT?

"I do not care whether you approve of my posts or not."

Your posts don't need approval, they need help.

To compound what should be your embarrassment for yet again posting without having actually READ ANY POSTS:

"Save your breath (typing) for your pals BG, montego, unpoor, link, and the like."

I am not even going to tell you how ridiculous that makes you look - you'll have to do some actual reading to find out while BG, montego, unpoor and link fall off their chairs laughing at you! See you on the floor boys!

I take it you just can't stand the fact that other people can explore differing ideas in a civil manner when you cannot.

So you have to go with the personal attacks on JZ88 and me and anyone else who has been here over the weekend while you weren't. HOW RUDE!"

Other than that - THANKYOU for your contribution to the topic!

BOBBYGEE - "wonder if one could be considered gay if he quoted Truman Capote"

might have to exercise due caution if you are typing with your pinkies up

oh drat....can't join you guys ROFL or bluebunny will have to help me get up!

"I believe that the main reason was to keep the oil flowing..."

The oil wasn't going to stop flowing.

But thiscould easily turn out to be the biggest scandel this nation has ever seen even though it was all done entirely legally setting up the committee to review the process and so on. 1979 - that's quite a few administrations! and a lot of terms for congressmen and senators.

"The term for those "out" clauses is... NATIONALIZATION... The Saudis and Iraqis did it to our big oil companies who discovered their resources decades ago... turnabout is fair play now, don't ya think?!'

YES I DO!

jz88keys, I think it stinks all around- whether it's a cover-up I'm not yet sure. But I would not be surprised. I expect nothing but lies from the bunch in power. Take your pick, any topic at all, and the lies do not stop!



"Other than that - THANKYOU for your contribution to the topic!"

What contribution? Did you already forget your assessment of my posts? You are again proving what a hypocrite you are. As for Tower #5 (as you called it), you were correct when you first responded - Building #5 is the right term. Or haven't you noticed that by your definition ALL of NYC are "towers"?

"Clueless" has never been my term - that one is all yours. PATHETIC (as in your comments - that one is mine). You are the one with the personal attacks, I attack your comments. Big difference.



Speaking of bluebunny .... since you are so concerned about cyber "security" why do you post her name? Not tonight, but a while ago, where music was the detour in whatever topic? More than once too.

"The Bush administration has approved the takeover of British-owned Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Co. to DP World, a deal set to go forward March 2 unless Congress intervenes. "

The Bush administration and our Congress have no approval rights whatsoever over the sale of P&O to DPWorld. We only have concerns over those ports in the United States impacted which represent approximately 10% of the overall deal. The deal is going to fly on 2 March without the U.S. ports.

"But Bush administration officials said Thursday that review is only triggered if a Cabinet official expresses a national security concern during an interagency review of a proposed takeover."

The Exon-Florio statute established a 30-day review following receipt of a notification. For those transactions for which an extended 45-day review (or "investigation") is completed, a report must be provided to the President, who must by law announce the final decision within 15 days. In total, the process can not exceed 90 days. The statute requires the President to inform Congress of his determination of whether or not to take action under section 721.

another interesting blurb from CZA's article:

"Adding to the controversy is the fact Congress was not notified of the deal. Kimmitt said Congress is periodically updated on completed CFIUS decisions, but is proscribed from initiating contact with Congress about pending deals. It may respond to congressional inquiries on those cases only."

We might want to consider changing this little bit of the process! THIS is why Congress wasn't informed up front.

"Iowa Republican Sen. Charles Grassley stated in a letter to Bush on Feb. 21 that he specifically requested to be kept abreast of foreign investments that may have national security implications. He made the request in the wake of a controversial Chinese proposal to purchase an oil company last year."

The question I have on this is whether or not Grassley serves on any committee that might justify this request. Back to the old "need to know" rule the government uses. The article is unclear.

"According to Kimmitt, the deal was reported on in major newspapers as early as last October."

must have been on Page 10 somewhere

So Dubai had pre-9-11 interaction with Al-Q:

"Since the terrorist attacks, it has cut ties with the Taliban, frozen just over $1 million in alleged terrorist funding, and given the United States key military basing and over-flight rights. At any given time, there are 77,000 U.S. service members on leave in the United Arab Emirates, according to the Pentagon."

So this sounds good: "After the September 11 terrorist attacks, the government began a new program that required documentation on all cargo 24 hours before it was loaded on a ship in a foreign port bound for the United States. A "risk analysis" is conducted on every shipment, including a review of the ship's history, the cargo's history and contents and other factors. Each ship must also provide the U.S. government 96 hours notice of its arrival in an American port, along with a crew manifest."

WHAT???? -"None of the nine administration officials assembled for the briefing could immediately say how many of the more than 3,000 port terminals are currently under foreign control." WELL WHY THE 'ELL NOT????

AND THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM! NOBODY IN THE GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO HAVE A CLUE WHO IS DOING WHAT.

cza, As a native NYer, I know that in the complex there were SEVEN "TOWERS", even if they were not all as high as WTC I and WTC II... Those who are not from here probably would never have known WTC was a complex had it not been for it's horrible demise (due to failures for which NO ONE has ever been called to task!!!)

And while we're on the subject of nationalization, I think that our government should also nationalize Halliburton, and any other connected corporation using our treasury to profiteer... there are laws against price gouging our own government... and/or "misplacing" billions of dollars...

Are you now waking up? Again? Have no fear, you'll be asleep soon enough. Again.

And it is not "CZA's article" - it is UPI. I gave proper credit. Stop the spin.

Wldflwr... of course, they have a clue... THEY'RE NOT TELLING... because right now, they're in the middle of a firestorm that will only grow when the truth is out there...

Re Dubai post 911, my only reaction: tomorrow is another day... don't tell me what they did wrong before 911, or right after 911... Our security and our ports need HOMELAND SECURITY!!! (As I suggested in an earlier post, would you oursource the secret service?) (On second thought, I might not mind that too much, given present Oval Office occupants... who are so careful to vet everyone and every company they deal with!!!)

(Another aside here... why haven't we seen those pictures with our fearless leader and his buddy Jack Abramoff? YOU KNOW... the guy he really doeesn't know, even though several intimate photos of the two together have 'surfaced' but have been hidden from plain sight!!! Yes, we got to see the two or three that are least threatening to the story...)

jz88keys, even if there were SEVEN TOWERS, they were known as North Tower, South Tower and then Building # whatever. There was no Tower #5 or #7 in every day lingo. Minor point, I know, but .... for someone who chooses to correct (red-line) other's posts ....

CZA "What contribution? "

the article you found that is very helpful and brings out a lot of things heretofor not mentioned.

"You are again proving what a hypocrite you are."

It is not hypocrisy to recognize and acknowledge the value in a person's contribution when they make one.

That you think everything must be all black or all white is merely an indication of your own limitations. Just because you generally make no contribution here, that you come here usually only to vent after your very hard day, doesn't mean that all of your posts are going to be garbage. GIVE YOURSELF SOME CREDIT!

"You are the one with the personal attacks, I attack your comments. Big difference."

Next time you are on the couch in some office make a point of asking about your problem with "projection"

"Speaking of bluebunny .... since you are so concerned about cyber "security" why do you post her name?"

Because that is not her name. What a silly thing to say! How many of your children if you even have any are named for rodents? There is nothing to connect "bluebunny" to her default email address or any of her other email addresses.

And had you actually read the posts you would have seen that internet security was embedded in the discussion first of all because one of the people here had their identity stolen and secondly the topic of surveillance vs security was raised.

"Not tonight, but a while ago, where music was the detour in whatever topic? More than once too.'

Perhaps you could explain this nonsense because it is totally unclear what on earth you are typing about. Have another sip CZA.

"why haven't we seen those pictures with our fearless leader and his buddy Jack Abramoff?"

well considering Jack got himself into some trouble....but there was never any love lost between Abramoff and Bush even in the past.

It is as silly to associate this president with every crook he ever had to deal with as it is to replay Clinton's WhiteWater dealings and accuse Bill and Hillary of being involved with them.

Not bluebunny ... Molly whatever! (I know the "whatever", I am not about to go down to your level!) Have another sip? Why don't you pop some more pills?

CZA "And it is not "CZA's article" - it is UPI. I gave proper credit. Stop the spin.'

spin? if you don't want any credit for the few contributions you make then fine.

you still haven't explained any reference to "music"......do you have some problem? No doubt by now inquiring minds want to know.

I took my pills this evening. Thankyou for our concern. And I am sipping tea.

and I wrote Bluebunny, YOU wrote "Molly"

"There was no Tower #5 or #7 in every day lingo. Minor point, I know, but.. "

A minor point you used to call someone else ignorant and giving erroneous information. No Tower #5 in your lingo maybe, definately in the lingo of those who worked there! And you accused me of being insensitive to their pain???

BTW, I just remebered ... you posted bluebunny's name when you were all chumy (chummy?) with mel or swoflea, take your pick. Let's say it was a few months ago. You can look it up, I will not go any further, but I know I am right - and you know it too.

Like I said, I do not need your approval or comments about my posts.

You think you contribute? How? By correcting bloggers? By answering line by line to other's opinions? Look back on your own posts and see how much YOU contribute to topics. You'll be surprised.

Hmmm... well back to the topic. I found this article of interest:

"Paper: Coast Guard has port co. intel gaps

By LIZ SIDOTI
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Citing broad gaps in U.S. intelligence, the Coast Guard cautioned the Bush administration weeks ago that it could not determine whether a United Arab Emirates-based company seeking a stake in some U.S. port operations might support terrorist operations."

The complete article can be read here:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PORTS_SECURITY?SITE=NYWHI&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&SECTION=HOME

I wonder what all the Aces on this blog will have to say about this... especially the ones who on the last couple of topics blasted all Muslims but now all of a sudden are big backers of UAE state run corporations controlling the operations of US ports. They are probably counting sheep in their dreams as I type this...

CZA Just remembered - oh yeah sure.

You were the one with the personal off-blog "friendship" with bluebunny before she realized what you are and dropped you flat.

"Not tonight, but a while ago, where music was the detour in whatever topic? More than once too.'"

Dang, so long ago you can't remember. She suggests you put it up or shut it up. But that's just her opinion.

As for blogging clearly you don't have enough education to recognize a point/counter-point dialog when you see one.

Over the weekend the bloggers covered a lot of territory. We shared a lot of information back and forth. We have some different ideas but we also have a lot of common ideas. And THAT is the advantage to point/counter-point.

Everyone else on the blog seems to realize that dialog can be civil and productive.

We are all on the same sinking ship, we were all in the dark on this whole ports thing while our hallowed leaders on both sides of the aisle kept this quiet for several adminstrations.

MTMAN thanks for the post! This just gets worse as we go along. What an interesting year 2006 is going to be!

"They are probably counting sheep in their dreams"

only those in Montana

Don't continue WldFlwr. You know you are stepping on a land-mine, don't you?

Would you like me to re-post one of your comments referring to her?

The off-blog frienship stopped because of YOUR threats, have you forgotten that too?

Well for all you happy Bush bashers who think the very dim but all-powerful OZ in the Oval Office is the root of all evil - let's just impeach him and remove him from office.

He can go home to Texas and get his boots off, pick up all those billions in those offshore Swiss accounts [thankyou perry for the explanation!] and live happily ever after.

Then we will have President Cheney.

What? You think he's worse? Think he would be hunting quail in the Rose Garden? hmmm well then.....

Okay ditch him to and it's President Hastert - oh God help us all!!!

Not him either....

Next in line is probably President Byrd. Dear old man is 89 years old. Wonder how long a man that age could survive the Presidency. If living in that drafty old White House didn't do him in the sharks in his political party would eat him alive.

After him would come President Rice. Now there's a happy thought for the Rainbow Coalition people - Hispanic, black and a woman. oops no husband and no children and even the feminist continegent is suspicious of those women. Remember how unacceptable Miss Harriet was?

As Fagin said, "I think I better think it out again......"

"I think I better think it out again......"


You are right about that.

So, should I re-post? I do not appreciate being called a liar ... your call, because it involves someone else. But you could admit posting her name and that would be the end of this stupid, STUPID, back and forth.

"Don't continue WldFlwr. You know you are stepping on a land-mine, don't you?
Would you like me to re-post one of your comments referring to her?
The off-blog frienship stopped because of YOUR threats, have you forgotten that too?"

Are you trying to threaten me with something? A land-mine?

Repost anything you choose. The woman is 24 years old, married with 3 children. She may listen to her mother's input but she makes her own choices. It was your sweet solicitous friendly emails in contrast to your then vitriolic other-faced attacks of her on the blog.

I know which post you mean but it is irrelevant to you and actually in the end also to me. If you want to dig it out go right ahead. Nobody on this blog CARES.

I have five grown daughters and they are my friends- a great place to be! And the 3 sons are really good men to know. Is that your real problem with Molly?

Go right ahead and blow your land-mine.

You seem to feel you have some omnipotent power over other people, that you are smarter than everyone else, that you can intimidate people.

You have more than met your match. Go right ahead and self-destruct.

and Peace be with you.

I am not even going to tell you how ridiculous that makes you look - you'll have to do some actual reading to find out while BG, montego, unpoor and link fall off their chairs laughing at you! See you on the floor boys!

Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 27, 06 | 9:11 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
OOPS, I fell off my chair!

Wow, wldFlwr, you were right again!

CZA Molly owns two websites and a blog and anyone with computer skills can find owner names on URLs. She advertises her music online and frankly a little extra publicity wouldn't hurt but you don't get a cut. Her second CD will be coming out this spring. She also has a novel completed, a second in a trilogy under construction, and is writing a third online under her own name. While you are at it would you care to advertise my kennel for me?

"that would be the end of this stupid, STUPID, back and forth."

a simpler solution - and it is NOT A GAME AS YOU MISTAKENLY THOUGHT! - try posting on a topic.

...counting sheep in their dreams as I...

Posted by: sheepman on Feb 27, 06 | 10:49 pm

Don't even need to add to this comment...

ROFL

WldFlwr, I am not going down to your level. It is enough for ME to know I am right - you DID post your daughter's name more than once (as well as mine, only once, which was "erased" by the blog monitors - do you remember THAT?) Regardless of your postings to the opposite ...

How are is the USA ever going to solve the port problem when average Americans don't even get along...

Can't we all just get along?

I do not think we should hold a nation's actions toward terrorism prior to 911 under the post-911 colored glasses.

Israel was the only nation in the world that took terrorism as seriously as it should be taken; the U.S. certainly didn't. And I can understand why small Muslim nations that could be in the crosshairs of being overthrown by OBL and other terrorists did some distasteful things and questionable things (under a post-911 microscope) to remove the target off of them.

We've had distasteful and questionable allies before: Communist Soviet Union vs. Nazi Germany to name one.
ChristopherNY wrote:
Welcoming Terror to U.S. Ports
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21413

Welcoming Terror to U.S. Ports
By Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld and Alyssa A. Lappen
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 24, 2006

Human Appeal International, a UAE government-operated “charitable” organization, whose board includes the UAE president, funds HAMAS as well as other Palestinian organizations, “martyrs,” Palestinian terrorists in Israeli prisons and their families. The HAI’s modus operandi is to transfer money to the Palestinian Red Crescent Organization whose West Bank and Gaza branches are operated by HAMAS. They, in turn, distribute the money to HAMAS “charities.”

For example, according to the Orient Research Center in Toronto, Canada, the UAE “compensation” plan for the Palestinian intifada in 2001 included $3,000 for every Palestinian shaheed, $2,000 for his family, $1,500 for those detained by Israel, $1,200 for each orphan. In addition, families of those terrorists whose homes Israel demolished each received $10,000.

Also in 2001, in support of the martyr’s families in the Palestinian intifada, two telethons were organized in the UAE. “We Are All Palestinians” raised 135 million dirham, or $36.8 million, and “For Your Sake Palestine” raised 350 million dirham, or $95.3 million.

According to a detailed report on March 25, 2005, in the Palestinian daily Al Hayat al-Jadeeda, the UAE Friends Society transferred $475,000, through the UAE Red Crescent, to West Bank “charitable” organizations in Hebron, Jenin, Nablus and Tulkarem to distribute to the families of “martyrs,” orphans, imprisoned Palestinians and others.

The Palestinian newspaper Al-Ayyam reported on March 22, 2005, that in 2004 the UAE Red Crescent donated $2 million to HAMAS “charities” to be distributed to 3,158 terrorists’ orphans.

On February 15, 2005, the HAMAS website reported on funds transferred from HAI to two HAMAS front organizations in the West Bank, IQRA and Rifdah, which Israel had outlawed. And last July, Osama Zaki Muhammad Bashiti of Khan Younis in Gaza was arrested as he returned from the UAE, for often transferring funds of as much as $200,000 at a time to the Gaza HAMAS branch. The suicide bombing and attacks, including one mortar attack on Gush Katif, caused the death of 44 Israeli civilians and dozens of injuries.


BUT this . . . . this has me questioning again even my skeptical semi-approval. Every thing needs to go under a scope before this deal is approved. Sheeesh . . . .

Nice of the White House to give the Dems some "tough-on-security" traction right before the election.

Sheehan to protest at U.S. posts in Germany

http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=34389&archive=true

Maybe...just MAYBE...the Germans will arrest her for "hate speech". Or is that too much to hope for? I know Sheehan's old news, but I still can't but feel sorry for her. She's so deceived into thinking that what she's doing is somehow honoring her son. But every time she shows up somewhere else, it's just another tread across his grave.

I posted your first name once and it was in connection with a blessing common in my church. Odd you would object. It was also posted with another first name or two. But then everything about you has to be about you.

Frankly, your first name is so common there are millions of you out there. Nobody on the planet would connect it with anyone at all.

You think anyone gives two hoots n a hollar? What an ego! Yes you wrote to the monitor and said I had posted your name. Well I didn't get removed because an actual "name" includes first and last.

I bet there are some Johns and Rogers and Ricks and Toms and Marys and Bettys. Oh my goodness will The Bob have to kick me off? Have I exposed anyone????????

You want retribution? Fine. My name is Patricia. big wow There are a lot of us out here. Will anyone figure out anything from it? AHA I am Irish. oh my God, the cover is blown.....a Patricia in Wisconsin. Try googling that!

" I am not going down to your level."

my level? I come here everyday just to torture you? I do no research on the topics? I engage in no dialog? You would need a ladder to reach my level.

When in this bizarre exchange have I said I didn't post Molly's name??? I believe you brought it up as some dire threat! Yes I did at some point many moons ago post her professional name. Is this a problem for you? Should I post it again?

If Sheehan's intentions were pure at the start...if she was indeed a grieving mother trying to make sense of her son's death, those are pretty big "IF's" in light of current events. I think this press release sort of solidifies (in my mind) the fact it's no longer about son Casey; rather, it's about CINDY ... CINDY ... CINDY. And an unending series of photo-ops.

I can't presume to even imagine what it is to lose one's son, but my feelings on this is that the kid volunteered and was over there (if only indirectly) by choice. If your son is taken by a child molester and murdered, I can see where you would want to do everything possible to avenge it. Ditto if you lose someone to a drunk driver or any of the myriad of things that results in a son preceding his mother into an early grave.

If she is torn apart by her grief, and wants to take action to feel better about losing him, I can possibly see it. But to systematically assault American foreign policy and to SEEK to make the US look bad in a foreign country, well..for me, it's over the top.

I say let her go and do what we should have done to Hanoi Jane. Revoke her citizenship and deny her re-entry. She can go live with her terrorist playmates somewhere else. Maybe share a cave next to ObiWanBin Ladin-wad of crap. She is a total dip-wad.

You think we could take a collection up and get a contract out on her with some Arab for the white slavery trade?

UP: If kidnapped, she would drive the kidnappers crazy.

FZ

UNPOOR I Hope you weren't hurt when you hit the floor!

oh dear poor Cindy Sheehan -she won't get on an installation. She could get herself arrested. I wonder if she is under the delusion that the Embassy will bail her out when she breaks German law?

I hope she has the good sense to stay away from the neos over there! But I doubt it.

So she's still spending that blood money.

"Can't we all just get along?"

that depends on which insecure anomaly-laden whacko is taking the potshots. So -naaaah

Colin Powell just said on the TV that the world is "flattening". That will upset a few people who just got used to it being round! And what will the churches do? Here we go again burning people at the stake!

oh for goodness sakes... Hamas finds itself in an odd position - they won an election and now they have to get real jobs and run a country. This will tack their shirt-tails to the deck.

Remember the Chicago-7? Fiery young long-haired hippy freak idealists. Where are they now? They got married, kids, mortgages, had to cut the hair. Most went mainstream.

Hamas is about to go mainstream or perish. Is it to the advantage of the entire middle east for their neighbors to help them get on their feet?

Did Dubai support various things prior to 9-11 to which we could really object? YES THEY DID. Then they reversed everything. And this, by the way, puts a bulls eye target on their map! They have gone western capitalist! Even Heinz is there!

" the UAE “compensation” plan for the Palestinian intifada in 2001 included $3,000 for every Palestinian shaheed, $2,000 for his family, $1,500 for those detained by Israel, $1,200 for each orphan. In addition, families of those terrorists whose homes Israel demolished each received $10,000. "

isn't this better than the New Orleans refugees got?

"$2 million to HAMAS “charities” to be distributed to 3,158 terrorists’ orphans."

The question is did it go to the orphans? The article posted [yes UNPOORs article] does not say it didn't. So what's wrong with taking care of orphans?They should suffer because of their parents?

Oh heck, there are people on here who think there is a muslim gene that makes them all terrorists so those people would probably say just let them starve.

"BUT this . . . . this has me questioning again even my skeptical semi-approval. Every thing needs to go under a scope before this deal is approved. Sheeesh . . . ."

YES and in the end this may be one of the best things to happen to this country - to break this wide open and find out what has actually been going on.

"But every time she shows up somewhere else, it's just another tread across his grave."

and that is pretty much what her EX husband thought. Maybe she isn't sharing the SGLI with him.

"If kidnapped, she would drive the kidnappers crazy."

They would probably pay for us to take her back.

UNPOOR I don't think anyone questions Cindy's grief. She lost her son. Although, I strongly suspect she lost this son long before he died. He volunteered to serve, he volunteered for the mission on which he died. If she had been close to him she wouldn't be on this mission of hers because she would have understood his motivation and accepted it.

"ObiWanBin Ladin-wad of crap" wow you don't spell any better than I do! but I like this version.

only one more shot because it isn't midnight yet so the day isn't over:

"But you could admit .....and that would be the end of this"

CZA you will never dictate terms of anything to me.

Mardi Gras is today, and I'd just like to address those who think it is nothing other than a bunch of debauchery -

I used to think so too until a couple of years ago, when I purchased a 2003 Honda ST1300 motorcycle on eBay. My new (and fast!) bike just happened to be located just outside Baton Rouge. It also just so happened to be in February, and the seller suggested I come get it during Mardi Gras and ride on his fiancee's family float. It sounded interesting, so I headed down to check it out. What I found is this:

1.) most Mardi Gras parades (there are MANY) are family affairs and not the kind of debauched and licentious activities people assume they are.

2.) many rural Louisianans are involved. High school marching bands are prominant, and the floats are pulled either by large trucks/semis or farm tractors.

3.) catching Mardi Gras beads can be fun, and lots of people bring their kids who enjoy the parades immensely. I happen to be one of those kind of people who enjoy hearing children squeal with delight, and there was plenty of that!

4.) yes, people do drink and have a good time. This happens for various reasons all over the world. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes!

I didn't ride on the float but rather mingled with the crowd, and the parade I attended was in Metarie, which was severely flooded by the hurricane's aftermath. The people I was around were mostly locals, and everyone had fun. I am sure some other parades are a bit raunchy, but so what? The fastest growing city in American for the past two decades is Las Vegas, and there is plenty of drinking and rauch there too. Mardi Gras is a tradition, it's fun, and I'd recommend you go to it before knocking it. I would think most people would realize that the infusion of tourist money is a good thing for the local economy of New Orleans and indeed the entire Gulf Coast, as Mardi Gras is a big deal not only in New Orleans but also elsewhere in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. No tax money for rebuilding one of America's oldest and most unique cities? Funny how that the same people saying this are mostly in favor of invading Muslim countries too. I'd rather see no tax money for useless wars myself...

Wild, I am still on the floor laughing at czarina. She must have been quite sloshed last night. I haven't read incoherent rambling like that since.....Perry's last post.

Zappa, where did you get the idea that anyone would want to kidnap Sheehan? The whole idea is that someone would actually care that the person is missing......

It's nice to know that jz88 and Perry are on the same wavelength: they both want to nationalize Halliburton. But I thought Bush's government already controlled Halliburton and the whole oil industry, according to the left. Hmmmm?

More reasons for concern from former terrorism expert under THIS administration:


"Joseph King, who headed the customs agency's anti-terrorism efforts under the Treasury Department and the new Department of Homeland Security, said national security fears are well grounded.

He said a company the size of Dubai Ports World would be able to get hundreds of visas to relocate managers and other employees to the United States. Using appeals to Muslim solidarity or threats of violence, al-Qaeda operatives could force low-level managers to provide some of those visas to al-Qaeda sympathizers, said King, who for years tracked similar efforts by organized crime to infiltrate ports in New York and New Jersey. Those sympathizers could obtain legitimate driver's licenses, work permits and mortgages that could then be used by terrorist operatives.

Dubai Ports World could also offer a simple conduit for wire transfers to terrorist operatives in the Middle East. Large wire transfers from individuals would quickly attract federal scrutiny, but such transfers, buried in the dozens of wire transfers a day from Dubai Ports World's operations in the United States to the Middle East would go undetected, King said."

Mtmn, I attended Mardi Gras in New Orleans last year (Jan 2005). That was my first one. I agree with you, it is steeped in tradition and history.

At first I was skeptical as to whether it should be held this year. I am glad the city/state officials decided to continue an old tradition. I think it is good for morale as well good for the city financially.

All of the naysayers, who have never been to one, should go and see for themselves just how much fun this celebration really can be.

As you said, there is drinking and other things going on all the time. Nothing will ever stop that.

Let's see, we've exported our capacity to make cars, furniture, clothing ... why not another service industry? Computer software design and support has all but disappeared in a single generation. Security will always be a concern, perhaps even more so with an American-owned company. All the workers will probably be illegal aliens willing to work cheaper than Americans in order to keep a healthy 'bottom-line' for the operating company's shareholders. Protecting all of our borders requires a major effort, yet to be accomplished or even adequately funded. Shouldn't the real question be are we not capable of managing our own facilities as well as a foreign-based corporation? According to the opinion of one experienced U.S. commercial ship's captain recently calling in to the NPR program "Talk of the Nation" is was a resounding “No,” the 'Arab' run operations are better and more efficiently maintained than our own. China and India are stretching their muscles in preparation to replace the U.S.A. as the world's only viable superpower. Do we want to continue to allow corporate greed and foreign investment to out-source our industries, our jobs - our future? Good Luck to us all.

Finally have made it thru all the posts of this week. I wrote my posts as I scrolled down and did not read ahead. I down loaded the blog this morning and spent the day reading and writing. I read them all and the best post winner is Derf. He covered a lot points but some facts still do not show up on the blog. I like the new bloggers because it is a chance to cover some old ground that was quickly forgotten. Some of my posts were covered in later posts but they will serve to make the proper points. I am amazed how so many ordinary americans seem or at least express to know more than our government contracting officers and people who have been contracting many things for many years. I am also amazed that many people think that the president should have knowen all about this when it is a matter that would never get above the 3rd level of the departments who had aresponsibility for it. This all occurred by a lawsuit from a U. S. sub-contractor to P&O who knew that it was going to lose its job after the switch. It was Politically hijacked to be a way to show the current administration to be weak on security. It worked big time because it brough republicans in on the side of security also. When all the facts are out we will see some red faces.
So my last post of today will be my first on the blog on Tuesday when I get home. 25 feb 10:30 pm 06 tk.
BTY I have noted the time I typed the individual posts.

All the facts on this port thing are not in yet. Some facts and questions follow: Fact: Over 95% of our port facilities are managed by foreign firms. Q? When did this contracting out start and who did it. Questionable Fact: Are the management contracts awarded by the port authority of each port which is a state or city political enity. Also, each port has several management contracts with different firms. The Dubai firm will manage 2 out of 14 docks in the port of Baltimore. Q? Who manages the other 12? Fact: In the six ports effected by this deal only 30% of the docks in any one port are effected. The other 70% are currently operated by foreign companies. Moreover, this management contract only does scheduling, operation of the trucks that carry the containers from the ships and many of their employees are Americans. Maybe CIA agents.

Fact: Singapore manages the port of LA . Singapore is the country with the largest Muslim population in the world. Fact: The empire of Dubai contributed 100 million to the relief efforts in New Orleans. Q? Should this money be given back.
Fact: In 1998 we were going to attack OBL’s base in Afghanistan. However, humit from the base called it off because the royal family of the UAE was in the compound also. ( George Tenets testomony to the 911 commission). Fact: The UAE is a union of 7 states that rotate the operation of the Emperite .

This is just the beginning of some of the elements of this story. One of the things that troubles me is that I see the fact that the UAE and Kuwait and other Arab nations are allies is a required element in the war on terror. I believe that we will not win until we get humit established in the Arab world so we can find out who our real enemies are. The only way we do this is by having our friends establish that humit and report the intelligence to us. We must all remember that the congress has prevented us from hiring criminals as informers. This used to be a very good source. Also, remember that we would have never won WWII if we had not had German and French undercover agents. We need this even more so in this kind of war. 25 feb 06 11:30 am tk

“ We better hope there is an out-clause in the leases of the port operation! And
we need legislation to prevent ALL FOREIGN ENTITIES from managing our key ports.”
Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 21, 06 | 2:12 pm

Wld: There is no going back on global trade. All of our ports are managed by foreign firms with American employees. These firms have contracts with the longshoreman’s unions. American firms got out of the business for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was having to deal with the longshoremen.
Everybody is way ahead of this story. I have the benefit of writing this on the 26th of feb because I have no internet axcess except when I go to a starbucks for a coffee about every five days. 25 feb 06 12:30 pm tk

Color: Your “Posted by: colormepurple on Feb 21, 06 | 3:39 pm” re: campaign finance reform. Well and good. One question. What prevents members of a corporation or for profit organization making contributions to these adds and then be granted reinbursement from the corporatin or organization for the same amount as an expense or salary bonus for good performance? I see this as a way to money launder. 25 feb 06 1:00 pm

I write this after having a fine lunch and discussing the port situation with DrD. Probably the first ever meeting of members of this blog. We could not differ more in our opinions of the portgate. However , we disscussed the item for an hour and agreed to disagree and watch the story play out. We did agree that the story is just starting unlike the shotgate story. BTW. Thanks for buying lunch DrD.25 feb 06 1:30 pm
______________________________________________________________________________________

Wld: Perry may teach in colorado. They had presidents day off. We had three granddaughters home all day, except for dance lessons.

DRd: Two of the 911 guys came from the UAE not Dubai. Some funds went thru the Dubai banking centers, that’s what Dubai does since it has little oil. Funds were raised for terriorsts in the uniteded states by a university of southern Florida proffessor and we dismissed the cgharges against him. Some royal members of UAE were in OBL’s training camp in 1998. Some terriosts are living in the united states right now. Alger hiss was a traitor. All this stuff we know after the fact. As we agreed the facts keep coming in that’s why Mondays are a good time to review the game. We are just starting to connect the dots. I believe that the staff at homeland security can do a good job. They have been concentration on security that is why all the things for hurricanes were not done. Anybody want to guess how many contracts the Port Authority of New York administrates and how many sub-contracts each of those prime contractors issue. I would be willing to bet that most are issued to the lowest bidder, by law. Also by international agreement they can not be limited to United states firms. Remember the flap about the contracts in Iraq. The United States restricted the contracts to collation states and the world was in an uproar. Only Isolationists would support having our ports run only by United states firms. Besides it is two late we have agree to the WTO policy on this issue. 25 feb 06 2:15 pm

There are those who have dissed Saudi Arabia for the fact that 12 of 19 911 hyjackers came from that country. But the saudis have walked the fence with their world and have still been out allys for sever decades. Their purchase of our military equipment during the 60’s and 70’s got back a good share of the moneys we spent on their oil. We sold them equipment at three times the cost we paid our civilian firms to make it. We constructed a complete new city from sand dunes in the middle of the desert. We had a Corps of Engineers division in the mountains of Virginia for over 20 years with over 500 engineers working on the design of that city. We also had hundreds of Americans working in country for many years. You have to have the whole picture of the world before you know the rest of the story. Just reading the stories that the MSM uses to sell papers will not give you the story. 3pm 25 feb 06 tk

As I read the posts of 21 Feb evening I get the impression that you all have been in the dark on the globalization of trade in the past decade. The WTO that many have supported has required many of these things that you are now objecting to. I have yet to see any post that states that ALL OF OUR PORTS are managed by foreign firms. Nor have I seen a defination of what managed means. I see the word control our ports. Managed does not mean control. As I said on John Gibsons talk show on the 17th of Feb. there is only one United states firm that could do the job and that is Haliburton. Since it is an urgent matter I also suggested that we would have to award a no bid contract. He thought it was funny and laughed. Imagine my supprise on tues the 21st when Rush played a tape of Gibson asking that question of Schumer. Schumer said he would have no problem with it if they won the contract fair and square in a competation . If any qualifications would be required of the bidders they would be the only one qualified to bid since no foreign would be allowed . This would be in violation of the WTO agreements we have signed . I may be wrong because I have not been able to research all of this because of no internet. Please correct me if I have errored. Also in the posts I have seen no WTO impacts. There must be. 25 feb 06 3:40 pm

Posted by: mtnman on Feb 21, 06 | 9:51 pm

Does this post mean that you are not able to read between the lines all the time and read the inter most thoughts or agendas of the posters. I can not believe that you are not infallible.


If this would have not made the headlines and some politicians not made hay of it. President bush would not of even known that it occurred. I would be willing to bet that this is a matter that happens at least every week on one contract or another pertaining to the conflict of interest clause in almost all contracts and is not of interest above the third level of the department of home security. 25 feb 06 3:50 pm

Before I read the posts on the new thread I will answer the question. No the president is not pushing any political envelope at all. He has no political goals at all. He is doing his job of protecting this country from harm and backing his executive employees when they make informed decisions and respect the law that they are obliged to follow. He is not a dictator as some claim. He does not get involved in every contract that the United States is involved in. He has departments that handle every aspect of contracts. We pay the employees of those departments for knowing the legal aspects of all contracts. These employees vetted this contract buyout and checked the list of friendly nations and allies in the war on terror. Dubai is currently on that list along with several other Arab nations. I am sure that it was noted by the panel that looked at this contract that the state of Dubai donated 100 million to the poor of New Orleans so that they could recover from the hurricane. Some believe that President Bush directed their way as to avoid his brothers state who has had too many hurricanes. Wake up America. Everything that used to be everyday business becomes a big deal when an investigative reporter thinks he has a scoop and makes it into one just by conjuring up a get rich scheme for the president. The party divide. This is a political year. Since the initial poll shows that the public thinks this is bad the politicians running for election will urge caution. 25 feb 06 4pm tk

Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 22, 06 | 8:09 pm

Well wld I didn’t get too far into the new thread and I have to disagree and agree. Agree on the modenization . We need it. Why has it been held up. It would cost longshoremen jobs is the main reason. Don’t have the cite but a few years ago they wanted to bar code the containers so they could speed unloading and movement. The union balked until they approved a 135,000 buck a year union clerk job to keep track of the bar codes. I suppose theirs been jurisdictional disputes over the years as to who drives the trucks away from the terminal the Teamsters or the longshoremen. I suppose that their has to be one of each to put the container on the trailer. And who positions the trailers and hooks them up to the dock trucks. I am guessing again but I think that the american companies probably got out of the business because of having to d3eal with the unions. The unions have no way to bully foreign firms. I would guess that over fifty
Percent of the management firms employees are Americans and very few from the owning nation.
If it is all about money, and money is what Dubai is about, why would it sell out a 7 billion contract for terrorist purposes.
What is wrong with foreign owned businesses? Germany owns Chrysler . And if we do not fix social security the world will own us. Who do you think owns the Social security trust fund. It is U. S. bonds owned by China, Japan and others. Bet a lot of Arab nations also.4:30 pm 25 feb 06 tk

In the above post we see one of the people who posted many of the extreme anti-Muslim viewpoints we have seen on this blog all of a sudden defend the deal with the Dubai state run company, as if it is a "patriotic" duty to back up any and all decisions and deals made by the Executive Branch. I've seen a couple of polls concerning this issue, and the vast majority of Americans are against this deal. Yes, there will be "significant ramifications" regarding this deal. Only this time, they will haunt the Bush Administration as this appears to be another one of the many errors in judgement it has made in regards to Middle East policy.
Posted by: mtnman on Feb 23, 06 | 6:59 am

Mtnman: You have bought into the very creative reporting that has continued this story from the beginning. As the truth comes out the administration only approved the sale of the existing contract held by P&O to the Dubai firm. No contract modifications were made. I suppose the contract provisions you talk about were in the P & O contract and just passed on to the new owneers. The key to me on this is the part in your post that says “Outside legal experts said such obligations are routinely attached to U.S. approvals of foreign sales in other industries." Does this mean that it is not the standard in “operating contracts” in the maritime industry? Maybe. I assume that the outside experts did not want to answer that question. 5pm 25 Feb 06 tk

Posted by: colormepurple on Feb 23, 06 | 7:07 am

We have to be careful of assuming things about some of the UAE royal family being with OBL in 1998. Could have been a way of getting humit into the camp. It could have been for financing of OBL. Even if that was the case they may not of known of his plans. I would think not. Remember that they have little oil and money is their game.
We must remember that we did not know a lot about who were communist spies in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations until after the cold war and the Russian cable were translated in the 1990’s. Some still have not been translated. When Senator McCarthy spoke of security risks in the administrations without mentioning names he was censored by the senate and died an early death. He was demonized and he was right. It was even worse than he knew and I believe lead to the Russians belonging to the Nuclear club and creating the cold war. Their were communist spies in the Manhattan project. So, the story is not over and I believe that a investigation here will show that the administration is doing its job this time and they are right. I may be wrong but each time a story breaks I am more sure of my position. 530 pm 25 feb 06 tk.

Posted by: soerries on Feb 23, 06 | 11:46 am
1. You mean to tell me that there is not an Amercian company capable of doing the work???
ONLY ONE HALLIBURTON
2. Bush is outsourcing jobs and money. Some friend of Bush must be getting rich at the expense of taxpayers.
THE CONTRACT WAS AWARDED TO P&O DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION TO THE BRITISH COMPANY. If you think about it, the statement you made above accuses Mr Bush or being a traitor, selling out his country to get money for a friend. Shame on you. You should think about what statements say before you pass them on.

The Port Authority of Each city awarded the contract. Security or property ownership never were a part of the contract. Compliance with all laws of the United States were and are required by the contractor and several U. S. Departments inspect to see if the terms of the contract are being adhered to. The company loses money if it fails to perform, like breaching security. This new company will not risk 7 billion for allowing a terrorist to blow the deal. 545pm 25 feb 06 tk

No American company was obviously willing to pay the price to run the ports.
Free market you know, the highest bidder normally buy.
Posted by: Fake on Feb 23, 06 | 1:11 pm

The lowest bidder gets the job. The thing that probably puts the American company out is the lack of qualifications, read experience. American companys are bullied by the unions. The unions involved here are tough ones. 6pm feb 06 tk.

If he was so uninformed of what happened, before declaring a veto, perhaps he should request some type of investigation to determine if it is feasible to maintain the agreement.
On the other hand, does kickback(s) ring a bell?
Posted by: big dog on Feb 23, 06 | 4:05 pm
Bigdog: Because he trusts the Departments to do their job. Dubai is on the list of allies. This was vet of a contract that we cannot really cancel except for cause. It is the administrations job to do this. These decisions occur probably a hundred times a day. There are probably several hundred thousand contracts with foreign firms. The president is supposed to know every one of them and the American gets to vett each one and we only approve the contracts after a poll of the public. That administration is out of office. Remember when the Army switched to baseball caps and they were made in Taiwan . I got a hard cover book titled “ the History of the U. S. Army.” Opened the cover and found it was printed in China. I sent it back. 25 feb 06 tk.

Posted by Wldfwr: “SWO "Although I believe it's been common here in U.S." According to AP reports the contracts were signed in 2000. And I see my time to research is offset by my math skills Of the 360 ports only 1/3 are foreign managed so that's 120 ports. That's 120 too many!”

Wld: Check your facts. Something smells. I do not think there are 360 commercial ports that accept imports. I also suspect your 30% numbeer. Why ? it is the same figure that is given as the maximum % of each of the six effected ports by this contract. In baltimore this company will manage 2 of 14 docks. They are the container docks. Your 360 may be correct if it is docks not ports. See my other posts for other facts. I have been doing research also but not on the internet. 25 feb 06 tk.

Wld: Check your facts. Something smells. I do not think there are 360 commercial ports that accept imports. I also suspect your 30% numbeer. Why ? it is the same figure that is given as the maximum % of each of the six effected ports by this contract. In baltimore this company will manage 2 of 14 docks. They are the container docks. Your 360 may be correct if it is docks not ports. See my other posts for other facts. I have been doing research also but not on the internet.

Take appropriate action? Well that would depend on what appropriate action turns out to be. I would like to see all the ports under our management. Do we have to buy back these 30 year contracts???? Do they each have an "out clause"? A buyout could be a spendy proposition. Reposted by wld from somewhere else.
First only a small fraction of the contracts go to the most qualified bidder. In these contracts there are many factor that are considered. Price is always one of them and the discression of the department selection official is also one of them or other factors as the official FAR language states. However we must remember that theas contract are not federal and we do not know if the FAR’s were used or the Port Authority Procurement regulations.
It could have changed but the FAR’s only allow five year contracts and then they would have to be renewed or rebid. What the Port Authorities rules are I have no idea.
All federal contracts have a termination for cause clause. This would involve breach of security rules or practices that would lead to a breach of security. I would believe that most contracts iwssued after 911 would have updated security clauses and most existing contracts would have had the security clause modified. The man/womanon the street(99 % of americans) are not qualified to even have an opinion on this subject let alone be asked in a poll if it is bad. So far I can find nothing that will tell me what type of contract it is. There are over twenty different groups of contracts. New ones are created all the time. 25 feb 6:45 pm 06 tk.

You can't impeach a president if he hasn't commited an impeachable offense. Being offensive isn't one.
Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 23, 06 | 7:58 pm
Having low poll numbers isn’t one either. Or being disliked by the NYT. 25 feb 06 6:48pm tk.

Folks: The contracts are not federal contracts as far as anybody can tell at this point. They are contracts awarded by the port authorities of each city on an individual basis. P&O competed for each of the six. They now sold the contracts to another company just like your house mortages are sold every day. We had a clause in there where we could review any sale of the contracts to ensure that we would not have any security risks. The best and the brightest in the homeland security department and other departments have determined that we are no worse off than we were before. It is two late to have no foreign companies manage some of our docks. The current administration had no more to do with this than tney did with 911. The secret service would not have let the president out of that building until they knew what was going on.
\
Welcome to the new bloggers. Please participate fully present your opinions but be prepared to back up statements with a reasonable argument or factual documents. Press reports will in mosst cases not stand up. They will be analysed by both sides and the weak points pointed out. Please do not respond by disengaging , correcting spelling and/or name calling. All presidents, former and present can be called by their first name, Mr. President. Other things show disrespect for the office, this country, and the constitution. 7pm 25 feb 06 tk.

Posted by: jz88keys on Feb 23, 06 | 9:56 pm
“Don't you feel that history written while your child IS 7 will be better understood when he is older?
How 'bout DESTABILIZE THE REGION FURTHER... is that BETTER?”
HISTORY THAT IS WRITTEN AND TAUGHT TODAY IS IN MOST CASES NOT THE FULL TRUTH. YOU MUST READ SEVERAL ACCOUNTS OF HISTORY PREPARED BY BOTH LIBERALS AND CONSERVATIVES TO GET THE WHOLE STORY. THEN YOU HAVE TO INTERPERT THE REAL THUTH FROM THE WRITTEN WORD.
THE REGION IS MORE STABLE TODAY THAN IT HAS BEEN IN CENTURYS. IRAQ WAS TOLD BY THE WORLD BODY(UN) 14 TIMES TO BEHAVE OR FACE CONSEQUENCES. THE FOURTENTH TIME WAS THE STRAW.


“Yes... Libby was caught in LIES... but his testimony (sworn) is that he was given clearance by his superiors...”

THIS ISSUE IS NOT DONE. IT WILL TURN OUT THAT HIS SUPERIORS HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DECLASSIFY INFORMATION. IF WILSON CAN LEAK CLASSIFIED INFORMATION THE CLASSIFIER CAN DECLASSIFY INFORMATION.

“The ONLY reason that this president has not yet been impeached is the LOCKSTEP of the GOP-CONTROLLED CONGRESS, although this port controversy has finally broken through that goose-step...
Please do not cite civilian casualties in real WARS that were precipitated in traditional ways, as opposed to this "WAR" which was totally orchestrated by the Bush administration.”

NO ARTICLE FOR IMPEACHMENT HAS BEEN PRESENTED TO THE CONGRESS FOR IMPEACHMENT. THAT MEANS THAT NO REPRESENTATIVE HAS EVIDENCE THAT HAS A CHANCE TO SUSCEED. NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID ARE IMPEACHAVLE OFFENCES EXCEPT IN YOUR MIND. CASUALTIES OF THE CIVIL WAR ARE COMPARABLE BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT ORCHESTRATED THE EMANCAPATION PROCLAMATION. 14 RESOLUTIONS ORCHESTRATED THE IRAQ WAR. SADAM SHOT AT UN ENFORCEMENT TROOPS EVERY DAY FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

“ remember... Bin Laden and Afghanistan did not EQUAL Saddam and Iraq until the bogus connections made in the lies that started this mess!!!”

THIS IS NOT WORTH COMMENTING ON. THE “MESS STARTED IN 91 WITH THE INVASION OF KUWAIT.
“Exit strategies were always in place as part of planning for each of the wars you cite!!!”
MAYBE IN PLACE BUT NOT EXCUTED.

“OH... and the ONLY war where we didn't have an exit strategy... that was VIET NAM... and you saw what happened there!!! (50,000+ American lives lost... for NOTHING!!!)”

IN VN WHEN IT STARTED IT DID NOT HAVE AN EXIT STRATAGY. AFTER THE 68 ELECTION AN EXIT STRATAGY WAS DRAFTED AND EXECUTED. A PEACE WAS NEGOTIATED AND THE US COMPLIED WITH THE TERMS OF THE PEACE AGREEMENT UNTIL 1974 WHEN THE CONGRESS FAILED IN THEIR DUTY TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR OUR ALLIES. OUR ENEMY VIOLATED THE AGREEMENT AS FAST AS SADAM VIOLATED THE 92 AGREEMENT. READ THE BOOK “HOW WE WON THE VN WAR” BY A HISTORIAN. THAT WAS MY WAR AND MY COMMANDER IN CHIEF IN 1963 ORDERED ME TO GO THERE. I SAID YES MR PRESIDENT., LEFT MY WIFE AND 6 KIDS AT HOME AND SPENT TWO YEARS OUT OF THE NEXT THREE THERE. I LIKE TO THINK THAT THE TIME WAS SPENT AS MY COMMANDER IN CHIEF TOLD ME WAS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE AMERICAN FREEDOM. SO YOU CAN POST TODAY YOUR VIEWS. IF YOU CONSIDER THAT NOTHING THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM.

“Finally, you are correct... politics causes strange bedfellows... but, as we have very few friends left in the world, if we count Britain as our "best" friend, ah well... it is what it is...”

FRIENDS ONLY APPEAR WHEN YOU EARN THEM. THEY DO NOT COME FROM APPEASMENT OF THE ENEMY. DO NOT EXPECT AS MUCH ATTENTION TO YOUR FUTURE POSTS. 25 FEB 06 TK.

Folks: Using a majority vote to elect representatives is a pure democratic government. None have ever succeeded We must remain a republic. See the tread that 5p1der made this point better than I can. 25 feb 8
;25 pm tk.

Instead of Dubai Ports World, why can't we just employ some US Company... NOT AFFILIATED WITH HALLIBURTON or some other Bush-family-friendly company... to do this for our ports... Those billions of dollars would stay in American bank accounts...
Posted by: jz88keys on Feb 24, 06 | 9:17 am
Consider this: No other companies have the capability. Like the auto companies the unions have broken them both morally and economically.

A lot of the dollars stay in the hand of american workers. Almost all employee employed by the management companies and their sub contractors are Americans. Dubai gets a fee for doing the management job. One of the tasks is writing the checks for the workers. All the shis are loaded by foreign companies and homeland security is responsible for making sure there is no nuke on board. Not the management company.
The management company contract was for billions of dollars for 100 ports for five years. The us part of it is for 6 of those 100 ports for five years. Probably comes to 30 to 40 million over the five years. Ask senator Schumer how much the Port authority pays to P&O per year. Ask the Mayor of Baltimore how much they pay P&O for the management of the two docks in Baltimore harbor. Not pass thru money. How much as fee for doing the job. It won’t be much in the overall economy. 25feb 9:00 06 tk.

I think it's terrible that this person they call mtnman or nutman or something is starting fires in the forest to create a job for himself and receive federal tax money. What about the poor little woodland creatures that are losing their homes or their lives? I think it's just awful and he should be ashamed of himself.

TK: welcome back. It looks like you have been doing your homework while on vacation. I agree with your first post on Derf... he wrote a well thought out post.

Helen: I agree, I think people who burn nature are creeps. My grand children camp out in the woods. Mtnman should be investigated. -Shirley

Yes, it is I, BLUEBUNNY! I have come forth to defend my honor. Or maybe it was someone else's honor. I haven't had my soda yet this morning so I'm a little fuzzy.

As the old guard on the blog know, I haven't been on in quite a while.

For the newbies, Hi, I'm Wldflwr's daughter. I'd say one of her daughters, but none of my sisters have ever been on this blog. I left the blog for personal reasons that actually have nothing to do with Mom or Cza.

I've heard about the goings on here from Mom (believe me she talks as much as she types).

I am here this morning to offer an objective opinion about the ongoing turf-war between Cza and Wldflwr. I should note that Mom (can't speak for Cza as I don't know her as well as I know Mom, in whose house I live) doesn't really view the blog as "turf" but I thought that term would acurately describe the situation.

Now first off, it's hard to argue with someone who doesn't argue back. The "back and forth" as Cza called it is comprised of both a "back" and a "forth." Both parties contribute to both the back and the forth because they feel like it.

Wldflwr and Cza clash not because of their differences but because of their similarities. They are both strong women who have strong opinions, and an inability to let go of anything (much like terriers).

Now since they generally have diametrically opposed opinions, at least one of them must be wrong on each issue. Difficulties sometimes arise from one person's inability to see things from any perspective other than their own (this applies to all people in the world, by the way).

Another trait they have in common is the Gold Medal Conslusion Jumping. This coupled with Chemically-Unable-to-Read-What-Is-Actually-Written-and-Read-ALL-of-It, causes even more problems. Having already established a minimum 50% wrong quotient between the two of them, one can easily see how a conclusion that is jumped upon and held with conviction, even while statistically likely to be wrong, can become an issue of some contention.

For the record, I have a name. My name is Molly. I don't care who has posted my name where, as I'm sure most of the people on the blog also do not care. I bet some of you have names yourselves.

As to the subject of music (not sure if the subject of music was a point of contention): Mom is a trained musician; music is a daily part of life in this house; she frequently uses musical terms in everyday language.

Must say that in my opinion Swo and Mel are most likely the same person. In which case, he is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That is a common problem people have, especially on this blog. Maybe Bob should require IQ tests for participation. Then people with different IQ levels wouldn't go up against each other.

I have no idea how sheep got into the discussion, but they are very dumb animals.

Back to the dueling egos...occasionally on the blog someone makes a suggestion, or even a downright order. Rather than taking this in stride as a normal consequence of human interaction, the esteemed and intelligent people on this blog have a tendency to respond with "Don't tell me what to do." What paragons of maturity. I think we could all learn something from them.

I think I've covered the major points I wanted to make, and maybe a few others. In the future I think it would be wise for both Wldflwr and Cza to stick to each other and leave me the hell out of it! For the record, typing "bluebunny will have to pick me up off the floor" was not bringing me into it. That comment was innocuous, spoke more to Mom's lack of ability to get up off the floor without assitance, and could easily have been let go, as evidenced by the fact that 99% of the bloggers didn't care.

Note to Montego and others: it is not appropriate to refer to Cza as Czarina. First of all Russians spell it Ts, not Cz. Second, the proper term is Tsaritsa, not Tsarina. I happen to know something about the history of the Romanov dynasty.

Oh, and Mom, Patricia actually comes from the Latin.

For old times' sake I offer:
Today's Fun Quote: "He that sups with the Devil must have a long spoon."

Welcome, Bluebunny, I have seen your older posts and read your Mom's stuff. She is a smart lady. I hope you will stick around.

Wouldn't it be delicious if Algore jumped in '08 and split the loon base away from warmonger Mrs. Clinton?

http://www.observer.com/20060227/20060227_Roger_J._Stone_Jr._politics_wiseguys.asp

paul: I made on offer a few posts back on one of the topics that you ignore me and I'll ignore you. I said just type DEAL or NO DEAL.

Perhaps you didn't read the post or perhaps you did and chose to ignore it.

My "don't make me come after you" Is a figure of speech meaning on the blog.

Please be assured you've nothing to fear. I have no idea who you are, where you live, and unlike others, do not attempt to find out. If I did, you still have nothing to fear as I don't waste my time dealing with inconsequential people.

While I seek help, please don't bother me with your 'notes'. Your as paranoid as the sheep(nut)man. What makes you think your important enough to bother with ?

Please: DEAL or NO DEAL. Just type one of the other. I'm not going to let you insult me without retribution. So this is the easy way tyo end this.

"I think it's terrible that this person they call mtnman or nutman or something is starting fires in the forest to create a job for himself and receive federal tax money. What about the poor little woodland creatures that are losing their homes or their lives? I think it's just awful and he should be ashamed of himself."
Posted by: helenborg on Feb 28, 06 | 10:33 am

HELEN mtman has never in his life started a fire. He is a very successful contractor in New Mexico! Because he has heavy equipment for his business when there is a forest fire in his state or in Colorado he takes his equipment to build fire breaks and to do anything else they require his assistance in. He is one of the local HEROES as these men all are in these emergencies. The federal government pays all firefighters who come to help protect life and property in the fire zone.

I have long contended on this blog that it is important to expose things like the perry construct because people come here without a base of knowledge to discern reality.

This thing about mtman is a long-running gag that has gone on over a year. Today it isn't so funny!

BobbyGee would care to volley this one yourself since it is your gag?

It is one thing to razz someone, it is quite another to have people come here and read \the posts and conclude that anyone here is a criminal.

colormepurple: "Wld, would you condemn an entire community based on the behavior of some ? "

Answer: Yes. And even an entire state.

I saw nothing "graceful" when Al Gore finally withdrew
and accepted defeat in 2000- in fact, I don't think he
has yet accepted defeat, merely theft. He strikes me
as a very angry, bitter man and quite mad, in which
case, anything is possible.

The Exon-Florio statute established a 30-day review following receipt of a notification. For those transactions for which an extended 45-day review (or "investigation") is completed, a report must be provided to the President, who must by law announce the final decision within 15 days. In total, the process can not exceed 90 days. The statute requires the President to inform Congress of his determination of whether or not to take action under section 721.Posted by: WldFlwr on Feb 25, 06 | 5:13 pm

Wld: Now you are getting to the 1000's of pages that cover foreign contracts. The number of rulkes for this stuff is why noone knows what is going on.

BobbyGee: If clueless agrees that would cut his posts down to 75%! He would have more time to surf the DU.

Wouldn't it be delicious if Algore jumped in '08 and split the loon base away from warmonger Mrs. Clinton?
http://www.observer.com/20060227/20060227_Roger_J._Stone_Jr._politics_wiseguys.asp
Posted by: unpoor on Feb 28, 06 | 10:53 am


Neil Cavuto on his show (2/27) also had a segment noting the similarities between Al Gore and Richard Nixon with the proposition that such may portend a successful Gore candidacy in ’08. However it is instructive to note the differences as well which may suggest that perhaps Gore really has no chance. The following are the differences I discern:

(a) In 1952 when Eisenhower selected Nixon as his running mate- Nixon was only an up & coming Congressman without any noticeable national office ambitions; in 1992 when Clinton selected Gore- Al had already displayed national ambitions by being a credible Presidential candidate in 1988. Gore did not contest the 92 primary since during that primary season the conventional wisdom was that George Bush (41) was a shoo-in for re-election because of the successful Gulf War of ’91. (That Clinton was successful nevertheless is still mind boggling to me today although I do understand the dynamics that were in play that caused such result & besides that is another story). Gore’s acceptance of the VP slot was easily viewed as a positioning for a Presidential run for ’96 (presupposing a Clinton defeat )- Clinton’s success of course altered the timetable of such calculation. This difference had this effect in perception- Nixon was in essence a relatively fresh face in 1960 despite his 8 years of serving as VP whereas Gore with his candidacy of 88 did not have such advantage. In other words when Nixon lost in ‘60 it was viewed as a close loss by a relative novice entitled to another bite at the apple but Gore’s loss in ’00 was viewed as the culmination of a career calculated run for the Presidency which just ran short & ergo prompted no justification for a continuation.

(b) Although the elections of 1960 & 2000 were the closest popular vote elections possible (Kennedy won by a mere 100,000 votes out of some 68 million votes cast whereas Gore received some 500,000 votes more out of roughly 100 million votes cast) the electoral college results (which of course actually determines the winner) painted a different picture. In 1960 the closest & most questionable state’s results was Illinois but even if Nixon were to have successfully challenged the outcome in that state Kennedy would have still prevailed. But 2000 was a different kettle of fish- the electoral college vote was so close that exchange any Bush won state (even a state with a mere 3 electoral votes) to Gore and the latter would have won. Thus Nixon could be gracious in defeat by suggesting that he would not challenge the Illinois results to spare the nation of an egregious acrimony in determining the elections results. But for Gore he could not be so magnanimous since overturning any state’s outcome would make him the winner. Thus he fought tooth & nail challenging the results in Florida. Although the hard core Democratic loyal still to this day maintain a “stolen” election, the average American including the sentient Democrat & main stream media are resigned to the fact that Bush actually won Florida albeit narrowly & hence the Presidency. Because Gore challenged Florida’s results so aggressively deprived him of the moral argument suggesting the entitlement of a second chance

(c) To my mind the most fatal knock against Al Gore was that he did not win his own state Tennessee in 2000 and of course had he carried his own state he would have become the 43rd President. Now one Democratic wag has noted that the Constitution does not require that to gain the Presidency one must win one’s own state but there is a psychological downside if you do not win your own state. If your own people do not care for you why then should the nation endorse you? Nixon did carry his state (California) but then he lost his bid for governorship in 1962. However this loss did prove to be a blessing in disguise in that Nixon in his own words “You will no longer have Richard Nixon to kick around” was able to portray himself as a non threatening statesman for his party. Thus the years between 1963 to 1967 were the opportunity to pick up markers and his support for Goldwater in 1964 was definitely a major plus. Gore on the other hand did not deign to contest the Tennessee Senate seat in ’02 when Thompson retired to resume his acting career. Quite telling that as a former Senator from TN he was afraid of facing Lamar Alexander (a former governor who even had a forgettable run for the Presidency in ’96). I recall he floated the idea of having his wife Tipper run against Lamar but private polling suggested she would get clobbered so such plans were quickly scuttled. The point of not running for the TN seat in ’02 reinforced the idea that Gore was finished. Thus his speeches were viewed more as quixotic utterances of a defeated candidate as opposite to a party statesman picking up markers for a potential Presidential future run.

(d) The most telling difference though is that Nixon had no problem in backing Goldwater wholeheartedly in ’64. As Goldwater had no ambitions in ’68 Nixon was able to attract to his camp Goldwater’s enthusiastic followers. Gore backed Dean in ’04 & had not the wit to support Kerry when Dean crashed & burned. At this date Kerry is still harboring ambitions for ’08 so that his supporters are not available to Gore.

For all these differences I come to the conclusion that Al Gore is no Richard Nixon.

UNPOOR Al Gore is considered a candidate probability for 2008 as is Kerry. There are several but Gore is considered a serious contender.

MTMAN - perhaps New Orleans is another victim of the media because we don't see family floats and high school bands. We see half naked women on the floats - and gays making out in the streets, drunks hanging over balconies.

As for rebuilding - the historic areas were mostly safe. The French Quarter is nearly untouched. Those areas on the high ground should be preserved for sure! But building this city again below sea-level is just beyond stupid. Nevermind the use of tax dollars - it puts the residents at perpetual risk, morbid danger because we are not going to be able to control the storms. Our ability to predict where they will strike isn't nearly good enough to give a legitimate head start to people in New Orleans. And the first time they evacuate and the storm moves they won't leave the next time.

"I'd rather see no tax money for useless wars myself...:"

Okay. I would rather see no tax money for the useless space program myself....

I think the nation has plenty of things on the plate to rethink. And we need to start with spring cleaning in agencies such as the FEMA, HSA, EPA, Immigration or whatever they are called this year.

BobbyGee,

Your comment:

"What makes you think <you're> important enough to bother with?"

My answer:

I'm not. So give it a rest!

Al Gore conceding and then "taking back" his concession in 2001 caused me to take my first steps away from the Democratic Party in disgust.

That was an embarrassment. I still remember watching CNN when it was announced, and I slapped my head and said something to the effect of, "How fricking childish."

Yeah, Only counting those sheep in my dreams turned into a nightmare. One had the name 'nutman' branded into its sheared hide. The other was branded 'paul' and they were doing things to each other. A fairy godmother was watching all of this with a beatific smile. I couldn't make out her name but it had something to do with 'flowers'.

bg, looks like you got your answer... the slug fest continues... unless Paul could'nt figure out the deal/no deal part

bg, The real funny part of the dream was Mtnman picked out an ugly sheep.

Sorry, that was from an old Montana joke I once heard. I could not pass that one up. ha!

Derf: Posted by: derf on Feb 28, 06 | 11:10 am

very interesting comments on Gore.

"I am still on the floor"

MONTEGO either you have a laptop down there on the floor with you or a high degree of dexterity.

"The whole idea is that someone would actually care that the person is missing......"

If anything untoward happens to Ms. Sheehan our State Department and our Department of Defense will pull out every stop to get her back safe and sound.

COLORME this is exactly why the "war on terrorism" is a global event involving all nations. Everyone is at risk! As greedy and power-hungry as the Al-Q leadership is they would take Syria and ultimately Iran for themselves too. Nobody is safe. This does really up the stakes. I just don't see any option other than to remove foreign management from all our ports!

BOBBYGEE after all your protestations over my remarks about the ARYAN Nations plans for the northwest you then posted on how you had been closely watching them the whole time they were in Idaho. Are you pulling your own leg?

BROOKS "Do we want to continue to allow corporate greed and foreign investment to out-source our industries, our jobs - our future?"

well the obvious answer is NO! but do you have some idease on how to turn the clock back and reverse this?

FRYXLL - "I think people who burn nature are creeps. My grand children camp out in the woods. Mtnman should be investigated."

IT'S A JOKE! A SICK JOKE OVER A YEAR OLD. see my post above about