Alternative Energy Sources - Are They a Viable Solution?

Well, here comes Rita. The second category 5 hurricane in less than a month is about to hit American soil, this time with Texas in its sights. Short term, it does appear that the preparedness level is significantly higher than it was for Katrina. Hopefully (and most importantly) that will translate into fewer lives lost. Long term, along with the massive rebuilding costs, the impact on the energy industry will be felt by all of us. This once again brings about the discussion of other methods of powering our nation. Perhaps a barometer for the interest in these options could be the significantly increased amount of attention alternative energy companies have received from investors. Time Opinion Leaders, is it time to take a closer look at these options, or is it unrealistic to think that they could eventually replace the current sources? Everyone has an opinion, and we want to hear yours.........

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Yes alternative power sorces are a good idea and we have waited to long to start using them. I see, almost daily the vanes and generators being shipped north past our home. This makes me feel good to know someone is thinking ahead. I have said before that I believe every home in the in this country should have photovoltaic cells on their roofs. Tied into the electrical grids nationwide.
Installed and maintained by the government,federal or state . We should have very little need for oil from forign nations. Also we have coal in abundance and there are ways to burn it cleanly. Think of the jobs that would be created just installing the grids ? And permanent jobs maintaining them. I know it wont happen as the big money is in oil and our representatives and this president are to beholdin to that bg money.

The use of water should be explored as alternative power source. A portion of the development of this country came about because of the steam engine. Certainly someone smarter than I can figure a way to return to steam as a source of power.

Wind and solar are unreliable. You cannot sit around hoping that the sun will shine or the wind will blow in order to power a nation.

And relying on the government to put them in place and maintain them would be foolishness of the highest order.

The only reasonable alternative after oil and coal is nuclear power. I know it is not politically correct yet it is the most efficient and productive alternative.

Go nuclear now!

It's not rocket science. Even the politically and environmentally sensitive frogs in France have figured this one out.

"Alternative Engergy Sources" is the polite term for those sources of energy that have proven in the past and continue to demonstrate in the present that they do not qualify as viable alternatives to petroleum products and therefore, earned the affection of fanatics, fools and frauds. These characters have been permitted to screw up the petroleum industry by preventing the exploration, production and distribution of petroleum procucts over the past couple of decades to create the impression of an impending oil shortage which does not in fact exist. Now these characters are attempting to promote "Viable Alternative Energy Sources" as "solutions" to the impression of an "Energy Crisis" which does not in fact exist. Rotsa Ruck!

There is enough petroleum to last us for another 500 to 1,000 years, even under worst case scenarios. What we need to do is to free the petroleum industry to do its job and send "Mother Nature's Little Storm Troopers" to their rooms without supper. Far too many decisions are being made in Washington. Let the people whose money is at risk and who know their business make the decisions about their business and then get about it. This is called freedom. The opposite is called tyranny.

OK I read the other blog page where you on the right are tryingto crucify me for my spelling and writing. Pick pick pick is that all you can do? Your a good friend Cogito because like he state its the thoughts that count no t just the spelling. Besides which the school cut the budgets and in doing so they did not get the spellcheck for the computers this year so some greedyu suburbanites can buy another SVU instead of funding the schools to an accepted level of funding for the basic nevessities. Think of it this way you criticizers who dont' like the way I write; if you bake bread all day who wants to go home and bake bread at home.If you correct papers all day who wants to worryu about grammar and spelling when Iam on my own time. See what I mean.

See here is a paragraph for you wildflwr. Happy now?The whole energy situation will never get betteruntil Bush is gone from office beause he will make sure that the whole country is dependants of his oil buddies in the cartel so the billions keep on rolling into his trust funds and offshore hidden banks.He will alway suppress the emphasis on solar and wind energies to protect halburton and the big oil money men he is allied with. We need a Democratic president like Gore or Kerry.Al Gore is especiallyu smart about the enviroment and would make those greedy oil companies think twice about their greed and he would impliment the fuel efficiecy standards and get some funding for alternatives now not in 20 years like Bush might do if he gets around to it. hah!Also by the way I was not criticising all high schools in general because PUBLIC education is the backbone of this whole country, I was saying thta kids coming from high schools in small towns because they tend to be so narrow minded and un-diverse in their outlooks and their expiriences.

bigdog water is a great resource but there is a movement afoot to remove all of the hydroelectric dams already in place - back to the environment.

capedcrusader I agree completely!

Dear Perry, I did not mention your paragraphs, someone else did. Two of the critics the other day were liberals on here.

Your paragraphs above are barely readable for the errors in them. You can't even spell environment or government so you can hardly discuss them credibly.

The people of the United States chose not to elect Gore or Kerry.

Public education is the nemesis of this nation and has to be cleaned up beginning by placing educated and competant teachers in the classrooms.

The small towns of this nation ARE America, the keepers of the values.

Now run along and do your homework and you might start by looking up the spelling of the university from which you claim to have graduated.

nobody here is trying to crucify you Perry. We acknowledge your passion for your ideas even when we do not agree with them. But it is wasted when you cannot communicate effectively. One would think you would want to improve.

Many here complain about Perry McKenzie's spelling - but did anyone notice two words - Alernative and Energy - were mispelled in this blog topic's heading?

oops and then I do it - Alternative

and don't overlook "Texas in its sites".
Maybe KLC does not have spellcheck either?

cza VERY GOOD :) but then KLC is an I.T. guy with a marketing firm, doesn't pass himself off as anything else. Actually we all have problems with our spelling, or alternately with our typing, on any given day. We do strive, however, for inconsistency.

Alternative sources of energy have never taken off for two reasons. One is that the cost vs. benefit factors and the second was the general apathy for it by this fossil fuel addicted nation. There’s another possible reason that big oil has bought up any true threat to their stranglehold on the American wallet but that just might be rumor and innuendo (Sure it is).

The apathy is going to be gone by next spring but current viable alternatives are limited. Photoelectric cells aren’t too promising in my neck of the woods. With only nine hours of sun time in the depth of winter, weeks at a time of cloudy weather, and a foot of snow on the roof I doubt they’d be of much use. As for windmills, I wonder how they’d stand up to 100 mph straight line winds? Also they look like they’s be great lightening rods, how do they stand up to electrical storms? Nuk-u-lar power, already have it here, have a plant about 30 miles from where I sit, it’s been there for a quarter century, and never a single problem yet our cost of power is going up right along with the rest of the country.

The American people are just starting to be roused from their cheap fuel stupor and have only seen the tip of the ice berg. Faced with house payment sized heating bills this coming winter and another hurricane induced price spike on gas we face the very real possibility of recession or even depression rearing it’s ugly head. Inflation is already rising and the forecast is not very promising.

This nation’s lack of any sort of energy policy is exactly the same sort of attitude that swamped New Orleans. Even though the experts have warned of this for decades we still got caught with our pants down.

Oh, and Doc, you keep espousing that we get out of the oil company’s way and let them do their business. Nope, because if we do that then we’ll have to do the same for lumber companies and other eco rapist.

If you think that they are such good corporate citizens then I suggest you do some research into the process of Fracturing and what it has done to a lot of range land in New Mexico.

No thanks, I’ll pay five dollars a gallon if it means my grandnieces and nephews will still be able to come to the riverbank and watch eagles fly and hear their cries echo over the water.

Ooops.

KLC: :)

WldFlwr, once a teacher always a teacher? I appreciate the "very good" comment. I know what KLC stands for, I just did not want to pick on a nice guy or anyone in particular.

I am not that into this topic, but whatever it takes, I believe we MUST develop alternate sources - biofuel, wind, solar, cleaner-burning coal, nuclear, a combination of any or all - whatever it takes to stop the dependency on fossil fuels.

We fool ourselves by thinking alternatives are too expensive, the oil and automotive lobbies are much too powerful to allow development of other sources, so we continue to pay the price.

My community is facing the installation of a "wind farm", miles off shore. The opposition is quite strong, because it will "affect the view" !!!! Go figure.

As with everything, the engerty problem must be solved with a balance of all sources. We have a balanced energy policy now. The rest is just ecomomics and assigning costs to the environmental concerns. There is room for all economic viable technologies. Please don't pich on my spelling and stay on topic. Failure to debate the subject is why i have been gone for several months. The government should do some research on alternative sources but let the private sector install the systems and make a profit.

coal is the ultimate fossil fuel and it is abundant throughout the country but as you point out, it needs to be clean-burned. Kids in Monessan,PA used to grow up thinking snow was gray.

Actually the alternatives have been too expensive - until this week perhaps.

"Affect the view" - oh good grief! There have to be concessions if people want to survive!

This could be one long cold bleak winter.
LET US PRAY!

tkearns no problem with your spelling unless you tell us you are an English teacher, Berkeley graduate with an IQ of 145! :) WELCOME BACK!

I thought we had a new energy policy that was recently passed. Have I missed something?

You are right, of course, we need a balance of sources. Every location in the country has a different set of factors to consider. Nuclear might end up being the overall system eventually. I suppose someone will say it will cost too much.

Pity we haven't figured out how to capture the energy of water rising 1º!

Actually this is a very good and timely topic - that is, if the blog members can get behind the idea of thinking through the subject material and despite the types of attitudes Caped Crusader and DrDarryl bring to the table. While some pooh-pooh solar, wind, and biofuels, others are living with and making these technologies more and more viable. Perhaps I am fortunate to live in an area of the country where people really care about the future of the planet, and where solar has been and is now being used to power many homes "off the grid". Right now I have varying blends of biodiesel fuel in three of my trucks, all of which run perfectly fine with this type of fuel. Wind and solar may not work everywhere, but where it does work well, that is where people are going to use it. Every time a house is built with solar panels, every time a big wind farm like those in California and Wyoming is built, every day people put biodiesel or ethanol blends into their vehicle's fuel tank, a bit more of our fossil fuel dependency is eliminated. This is especially important during a time period when it seems many of the sources of fossil fuels are in areas of the world not particularly friendly with our nation. This country was founded by and settled by people who were proud to live in a self-sustaining way. To many today, nothing can be more American that to regain a self sustaining vision and distance our nation from the oil cartels and nations who hold way too much of a hold on all of us due to our dependence on their products and resources.

Solar technology is an interesting "alternative" energy source. It's been around for a long time. It got a big boost during the energy crisis in the 1970's but lost somewhat of its luster after that: it wasn't as exciting as other R&D topics and the cost of fuel remained relatively cheap. I recall a JPL engineer telling me that Solar Power had great promise but that it wouldn't really take off until it could be installed in ones home as roofing material. However, the technology for creating such roofing material had not yet advanced to the point where such installations were economically possible.

The technology (MEMS, Nanotechnology, and Thinfilm Technology) has continued to advance to the point where such roofing systems may be possible. A growing number of companies are working in this area and venture capitalist funds to them are on the increase.

For an interesting company in this area, take a look at Nanosolar

Bigdog ~ are you kidding me? Steam, is the gas that drives the turbines that create almost all electricity. With the exception of photoelectric, windmill, and a few less known or less efficient generation types, steam is it. Nuclear power, coal power, oil power, all heat water to generate STEAM to drive turbines to create electricity.

Dr. D, from Sep 22 | 4:01

You may be correct that there is still an ample supply of the world’s oil left. HOWEVER; A) it WILL eventually run out. B) what’s wrong with supplementing it?
Attaching photoelectric cells to the tops of everyone’s house would significantly reduce the amount of energy required to be produced by power plants, which in turn, will reduce the amount of oil we use, which in turn, will reduce the amount of oil we buy... thus reducing the cost of oil overall....

This is a very old debate. It has been going on since the 1970's when the eco-nuts were saying the world only had a 15 year supply of oil left. As usual, they were wrong. In 30 years, solar power and wind power have not made a dent in the nation's energy needs. Obviously, the free market has determined that there is little interest in them.

Liberals have been whining for 30 years that gas prices are not high enough here. "Look at how much they pay in Europe," they whine. It's not fair. Blah blah blah......

Let's face the facts. The environmentalist whacko agenda is to eliminate fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine because these are the things that give us our high standard of living. They want to change this country and put us all in high rise apartments, riding public transportation to our government jobs in high density urban centers.

These are the people who have prevented the construction of new oil refineries for 30 years, thus contributing substantially to the price spikes when supply interruptions occur. Thank them and their accomplices in the dominant media culture and the Democrat cloak rooms in Congress.

CapedCrusader, good point about the frogs. Normally, the left in this country looks at Europe and especially France as more "enlightened" than we are. How ironic that they hate nuclear power in America.

Perry, if you know where I can buy an SVU for the price of a spell check program, let me know. I will buy three or four.

On Good Morning America a few weeks ago, they showed an entire community that is MOSTLEY dependent upon solar power. They generally have electric bills around $20-$30 while some even have negative bills. While the expense in installing solar panels may be expensive, In the long run, an electric bill that costs roughly $150-$250 a month that can be decreased to $20-$30 per month will pay for itself in the long run.

I don't know how viable this would actually be if implemented every where but I know that here in TX especially where I live it could work.

The fact of the matter is that there are places where it won't work. The point is that we need to get as many places in the states dependant on some other form of power. Even if it won't work for all places, if it takes some of the dependence off of oil, we would be better off.

I believe that this is worth looking into.

Most of the preceding suggestions/recommendations make sense and probably would go a long way in decreasing our oil dependencies. However, IMO, the only way any of them will be implemented is someone has to figure how it will pad their bank account. They could care less about anything else.

montego,

Your comment:

"Obviously, the free market has determined that there is little interest in them."

You're correct on that point.

The U.S. market for solar energy products is pretty small: about $7 billion last year. That's only a $2 billion increase over the previous year.

paul - up $2 billion in one year, or about 40%. No, solar energy production isn't growing... it's booming. And the technology keeps getting better all the time too. Thanks in no small part to design work being done at our national laboratories - Sandia in particular, but also Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore.

montego's comments are typical of the ostrich-like head in the sand commentary of those who prefer not to see what is right before their very eyes. "The environmentalist wacko(s)" he refers to are often highly trained scientists whose predictions from 20-30 years ago concerning the effects of global warming are evidenced by the increase of huge hurricanes and the rapid melting of the polar ice caps. Dinosaur thinking focusses on the use of dinosaur fuels and, just as predictably as climate change, will result in a dinosaur-like end for our species. Of course, before then, their will be plenty of opportunities for profit-taking by exploiting all possible natural resources. Or perhaps long-sighted people will convince enough people that sustainable resources are the way to go, and a cleaner brighter future awaits our children and grandchildren. Enough disasterous blows to the US such as those occuring now along the Gulf Coast may result in a long, hard, serious look at what sustains our society, and where those resources are located. The so-called alternatives do work; watch investment in them sky-rocket in the coming years.

I got to throww in my 2 cents worth about this gal Perry. I'm not goingg to criticize the spellingand that becuase I am not one to talk but i had 2 strokes and my vision and coordination is not so goodanymore. if you are a teacher God forbid any of your kids actuallly adopt any of your nutty viewspoints. Lady I think you got a few thing to learn aabout the real world. I grew up a city kid and ive known many friends who grew up in small towns. Alot of them are dead now but they had commmon sense and thats something your brought up with. You can't teach it. come to think of it Ia m not sure you can teach anything.

Can't help it can you DrD, got to continue the conservitive cant. It 's not about how much oil there is, it's about our dependence on foreign oil. And don't try to tell us we have plenty on this contenent. And wind power is very viable;
Check out 29 Palms California it has been working for at least 30 years. And the companys now installing wind generators as fast as they can seem to believe they are viable. When you don't have a "viable" argument you resort to insults and name calling. And yes it's called freedom in your mind,for businesses, and tyrany for the ones paying the bills.
Shutter, wind generators seem to work fine in the places I mentioned. And most of the southwest has sunshine 365 days a year and that is a lot of roofs without snow on them.
Yes nuclear is a good sorce and seems to work fine in Canada with no adverse effects. I too fear a depression. This president and his republican cohorts have sucked this country almost dry of any surpluses we had and we may not be able to weather the storm that is coming.
Shutter DrD has to to espouse his masters propaganda ,it is his job on this blog.
Cza, Wldflr, the persons worried about the view are the wealthy of that State ? And Mtnman once again you make good sense.

You guys are getting pretty hysterical. I think it is caused by the doom and gloom in the media. Depression? I don't think so. A depression is not caused by the lack of a federal government surplus. It is the result of many economic factors all converging at the same time.

mtman the National Hurricane Center where they study the weather states that global warming is not in the equation for these hurricanes, this is a natural cycling of the weather patterns.

There is a world-wide Depression coming, don't know when but it has been predicted for decades. Of course in this country we just change the verbage, relabel it and think we are doing fine. Interesting little news note the other day - the European Union is upset with OPEC over the price of oil.

If Rita takes out another 25% our refinery capability OPEC can give us the oil as a gift and we won't be able to make gasoline for quite some time. And the trucks won't run when the companies cannot afford to keep them moving things like food around the nation.

This is a great time to be in a rural area where people have gardens and orchards and eggs and meat available. We can barter and trade back and forth -remembering, of course, to track such transactions for the IRS. And we won't be sitting here waiting for FEMA if we have another disaster.

As for energy sources - plenty of wood here if we can work around the insurance industry that doesn't want anyone using it, but no coal at all. We don't have enough sunlight to do much with solar although many homes are gleaning all they can from what there is. Also not enough wind power here.

One thing Americans could learn to do is wear natural fiber clothing which is warmer than synthetics. In Europe where they have traditionally resisted central heating systems, they wear a lot of wool. Goodness knows the American Wool industry could use an upturn! Those quaint shawls and other coverups are handy in northern winters.

Remember "ma in her kerchief and I in my cap had just settled down for a long winter's nap"? if a large percentage of heatloss is thru the top of the head returning to the nightcap [not the drink] could help a bunch. Real men CAN wear caps to bed and flannel pajamas too! And all her life my mother kept a hot water bottle [anyone remember those?] in her bed for her feet. When she was a child it was a brick warmed in the fireplace and wrapped in a cloth.

If we have to do with less energy we will have to make a few simple lifestyle concessions.

The media blitz about these hurricanes and disasters is way out of hand. We do not need to hear about it 24 hours a day! There other things going on in the world. Then you get these idiot reporters asking the Prez whether he and and his people will be in the way when they go to Texas. Last week, the same idiots were complaining that he did not go to Louisianna soon enough! Give me a break. Talk about in the way----40,000 reporters and cameramen to cover one hurricane!

and I should not forget those with the opposite problem - hot climates. Natural fibers "breathe" and are cooler than the wispy synthetics that just stick to your skin. I once took a trip to Dallas in a car back before air conditioning, just had the windows open. I wore a wool blend outfit and I was the most comfortable person in the car. Wool and cotton let the air flow through them better.

And here is a handy hint for the modern day women - Old Grandma Lucy [who lived here all her life and died in her late 80s just a couple of years ago] said the skirts women wore in the "old days" were cool, as they let the breeze flow. While she was modern enough to go shopping in slacks, she never did take up working her garden in pants.

Irv, we understand about your typing. Perry, however, has no such excuse. Given her behavior here not to mention her extreme views, no child should be taught by her.

THANKYOU FUZZY!

Yes, the world is still turning. The President or whatever he is of Iran has stated that it is important that democracy work in Iraq. And Al-Sistani, the most influential Shiite leader in the middle east, has put out a statement that the new Constitution should be passed.

It is heartening, however, to see the coverage on the way the people of this nation have opened their hearts and their homes to other Americans in need.
The government won't have to foot the whole bill because the people are taking care of the people and that is our redemption.

Bush did not invent deficit spending. It is an art form perfected by Democrats for decades. Wars have always caused deficits. Prior to the war, the decrease in the rate of revenue growth was the result of the Clinton tax increases dragging down the economy and the economic downturn when the dot.com bubble burst.

Montego one of the scariest statements made was that no student of hers would be allowed to disagree politically. We had a teacher when I was in the 3rd grade who took her personal beliefs into the classroom - her contract was not renewed which is Educantoid for 'oh so fired!' Had another in our high school - same thing. And the unions do not protect these people.

I would just once like to see a post by Perry contributing to the topic. She may actually have something to say about renewable energy sources. That is covered in Middle School Science.

Dependence on foreign oil? I like the one where the guy says use up theirs first and then we'll use our own.

Wild, I concur. I had numerous occasions in high school and college where my grades were substantially reduced because I wrote something which disagreed with the political views of the indoctrinator. It was always with liberal professors, too. Surprise, surprise.

Wild, in my experience the unions and the administrators do protect these so-called teachers.

I seem to recall a post by Doc Goldstein a few months ago where he explained the mindset of the entrenched liberal ideologues on campus. I wish I could look it up now and paste it in for Perry to read.

Montego you needed to be more proactive on your own behalf.

In high school that would have required your parents to say something. My parents did not allow teachers to grade my ideas, only my mechanics or the objective facts of the topic.

In college there is the course syllabus and I will guarantee none give license to a professor to grade on your agreement or disagreement with personal views. The syllabus represents a contract. Your part of the contract is to show up for class and do the assignments. The instructor's part of the contract is to fulfill the requirements as listed in the syllabus. University libraries usually have a section containing every syllabus for the school.

So what can a college student do if there is a violation? Start with the Deans and if they do not correct the problem demand a refund of tuition for that course. Once you mention money the ears pick up!

Older students know this and professors don't hassle them the way they pick on the 18-22 set who haven't learned the ropes.

I think whether administrators and unions protect the deficient and the whacked out depends on where you live. The individual in question lives in a large metro area - how do we know that? She doesn't own a car and wants us all to use our "public transit". I think things just work better in rural school districts and small towns where those "narrow" values still rule.

Wild, yes those are good ideas. As to high school, I frankly did not care enough to pursue anything. In college, the deans and other administrative losers were so spineless that they would never go against liberal orthodoxy. Some of us fought the fight a few times but did not enjoy banging our heads against the left wall. You just learned never take a class taught by a leftist ideologue.

It must have been difficult for you to finish your studies, montego, there being so many leftist ideologues teaching in colleges. How were you ever able to find enough professors who weren't.? Did you major in Physical Education or something like that where you didn't have to worry about being exposed to new ideas.

"mtman the National Hurricane Center where they study the weather states that global warming is not in the equation for these hurricanes, this is a natural cycling of the weather patterns."
Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 23, 05 | 3:05 pm

Thanks for the info, WldFlwr. There are many more sources other than the National Hurricane Center to rely on. The NHC is a government agency - I'll leave it at that.

LOL about "natural fibers", WldFlwr. It's one reason I avoid wearing suits and ties. Rarely do you find me wearing anything other than 100% cotton and leather. We've raised fiber producing animals for nearly 20 years, and both my wife and soon-to-be nuclear engineer daughter are skilled at spinning and weaving all kinds of natural fibers. The aspens are turning this week, meaning I'll be out there gathering and splitting wood, which is (along with solar gain) our primary source of heat.

paul - montego acts as if there aren't any right-wing ideologues teaching at America's colleges. Perhaps he should have studied science instead of liberal arts.

well actually you know, they could be wrong of course. It's all guesswork. I wouldn't say government swags are any less valid than anyone else's. Give it a few more hundred years and we will know for sure. In the meantime there isn't much we can do about it. But it would be good to harness some of the hurricane energy and convert it to something useful.

But I do have to ask - do you think if the White House had a Democrat in there we could trust the NHC any more than we can now?

In defense of your point mtman - the guy in the National Geographic video on Cyclones who was calling the shots on Andrew at NHC thought it would be a little nothing storm. So he gathered his family in his little frame house and they rode it out 6 or 7 people and a cat. They only survived because when the kitchen wall fell in on them creating a crawl space between the two walls leaning on each other. The roof was gone, the whole house was destroyed. And if he didn't see it coming..........

....so much for government experts

To answer the question you pose to me - "But I do have to ask - do you think if the White House had a Democrat in there we could trust the NHC any more than we can now?" The answer is no.

I found a really good discussion site run by scientists and with the following "mission statement":

"RealClimate is a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists for the interested public and journalists. We aim to provide a quick response to developing stories and provide the context sometimes missing in mainstream commentary. The discussion here is restricted to scientific topics and will not get involved in any political or economic implications of the science."

Check it out - it's a very interesting take on climate study issues and their interface with the news.

http://www.realclimate.org/

Isn't it sad? Not quite 2 days and we are off, way off topic already? Climate changes, natural fibers, liberal vs. conservative educators - all interesting, really, but ...

Since we are off-topic, I rather discuss the unmentionable: human rights abuses condoned and practiced by US.

How much further are we going to fall? And yes, it is politics and it is partisan. Because the WH occupant billed himself to be a uniter, compassionate, and who knows what other lies.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html


What will it take for his supporters to open their eyes?

well actually climate is related to energy sources but what the heck....

"The U.S. Army has launched a criminal investigation into new allegations of serious prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan made by a decorated former Captain in the Army's 82nd Airborne Division, an Army spokesman has confirmed to TIME"

And so what is your point cza?????

This is what we do when we find out there has been a breakdown within the chain and crimes have been committed. THE U.S. ARMY DOES NOT CONDONE THESE THINGS. THEY ARE NEVER CONDONED AND PRACTICED! They are not accepted anywhere, anytime.

Do they happen? Yes they do! And when they do they are found out. Is there stonewalling within the commands where these things have happened? YOU BETCHA! because they all know these things are unacceptable, illegal and there will be punishments meted out.

Nobody is lying about this - you just read about it in a popular publication.

War is not a nice thing, it is a bad place to be, a bad time. People commit atrocities in wars and that is why there are rules and regulations and investigations and punishments.

We haven't "fallen" and this has nothing whatsoever to do with partisanship or even with politics. Nobody condones these things in our government.

These are isolated incidents and you assume they are common place and condoned. YOU STILL JUST DO NOT GET IT! You are still emotionally strung out on your childhood and that is very unfortunate for you.

You still think of our American Presidency as a Dictatorship and you are completely full of it! I am sorry for the pain of your background but I am sick of your misunderstanding of the military in this country.

Please feel free to continue to be a dumbocrat and fall for outrageous propaganda that is based solely on the plan to get votes - and which flows from both sides equally. But DON'T EVER FORGET that you are free to express your moronic mistaken opinions because of the United States Military that protects your right to do so! But do NOT cast aspersions on 150,000 men and women for the errors of a few dozen if that many!

Do I sound just a bit touchy? Well Greg is back in Iraq helping that nation pull together a democratic government, battling insurgent opposition to it. He is risking his life so Al Quaida's new crown prince Zarquawi does not succeed in taking Iraq for a new home base from which to launch attacks against the entire free world and the rest of the Arab nations as well.

tman THANKS FOR THE LINK!

My childhood??????????? WldFlwr, you have really lost it. You assume way too much. (and wrongly to boot).

I suppose it's much easier for you to turn a blind eye to what has happened to this nation under the current administration.

You think the president of the United States has all these powers, all this influence, none of which he/she actually ever has had, nor ever will have. The power in this nation lies in the Congress and in our system of Checks and Balances. Congressmen do break from partisan lines on important issues.

And WE control Congress with our votes.

Nothing has "happened" to this nation. We are the same big dysfunctional famly we always have been.

well it's late now so cza do tuck yourself in and sleep well knowing the United States Military is protecting you on the land, on the sea, and in the air. Rest well and peace be with you.

Nothing has happened to this nation? You are kidding, right?

My point WldFlwr, which you purposely missed, was that the tone and policies set by W, the "quaint" concept of adhering to the Geneva Convention, as expressed by our current AG, has had the desired effect: torture and abuse of POWs is now much more widespread than it ever was. A few bad apples? Turning into bushels, isn't it?

You have a very narrow-window when it comes to reading my posts. You read them through "military eyes" – and I am not criticizing the military. I am pointing out its Commander in Chief's outright and/or tacit orders. You fail to see the distinction.

Do I think the POTUS has influence? In your words: YOU BETCHA! Does he have power? YOU BETCHA!
Take your blinders off, it will not make you unpatriotic – it will make you a better citizen, looking out for your nation, as opposed to looking out for a mere politician.

Every post shows more of your obtuse ignorance of this country and how we actually work.

The Geneva Convention applies to armed uniformed combatants representing the government of a recognized nation. It does NOT apply to terrorists, insurgents or other rabble operating outside the laws of civilized nations. The day the United Nations seats Al Quaida is the day the Geneva Convention will apply.

No president micromanages the military. You can't get military dictatorship out of your psyche. And there are no "tacit" orders authorizing crimes. That is political pap you refuse to recognize for the nonsense it really is.

Nothing is "much more widespread than it ever was" except perhaps the media and their sensationalism of the extremism of both 'wings'.

You were not criticizing the military? dont' step in that in the barnyard!

mime And don't we have many bad economic factors converging at the same time ?
Need I name them ?
Wldflr; I watched a documentary last night and the meterologists all said just the opposit of what you are saying. Who should we listen to ?
You are right about having to start wearing warm clothes in stead of turning up the thermostat.
Mtnman ; When I was a young man wood was all we had, no choices, we would skid it into large piles Buzz it and split it and stack it into cords,many cords . I have to disagree with you this time Mtnaman; There are a lot of right -wing ideologues teaching in the church run colleges.
Wldflr I am sorry to learn that Greg is back in harms way. I am also sorry that young men and women are tilting at windmills . As there will never be a democracy in Iraq.

" I watched a documentary last night and the meterologists all said just the opposite of what you are saying. Who should we listen to ?"

That is a very good question but the answer is - nobody knows. Only time will tell who knows what. It's all guesswork. And it isn't a political question despite the efforts of the disenfranchised to make it one.

cogito I asked Greg if we cut and run the way we did out of Vietnam and just let Iraq blow in the wind is it still worth it to him? And he said YES. The infrastructure throughout the nation, outside of the Triangle, had been let go for decades. They now have their schools functioning, their hospitals repaired and stocked, bridges built, roads repaired. The money is no longer flowing into Sadaam's coffers and building him more palaces. The mass graves have been discovered and many victims claimed by their families.

Unlike some countries in the world Iraq has a very long history, the place and the people predate history itself. Oddly enough, Sadaam allowed a middle class and universities. Iraq is the one nation in the middle east most likely to succeed with a democracy. The new government is comprised of people who have lived in democracies for the past 30+ years. They know the advantages.

Will it have a theological bent? Of course it will, the same way America was founded by Christians. "We are endowed by our Creator....."

I think there will be deomocracy but as the president has stated several times, there are many faces to democracy and it doesn't have to look like ours, and it won't.

Could they fall into three nations - Sunni, Kurd and Shiite - maybe. IF there is war between them it will be because the Sunnis have sand and the others have oil. It would wear the face of a religious war but it would be about the oil.

Perhaps in the end all wars are tilting at windmills. Russia and Germany and France are in bed together sharing military units. The Japanese are our allies. We have re-opened the doors with China. The only real change in the last century was that Israel is again a nation and look what a "happy ending" that has created!

cogito - my remark to poor old montego was tongue in cheek. I went to an Ivy League college in the 70s, and there were at least as many right-wing ideologues as there were "lefties" - especially in Economics and some Philosophy courses. My remark about science was aimed at studies where politics do not matter.

"studies where politics do not matter" That sounds so sweet in 2005! Now everything seems to have a political bent. Oh for the good ol days!:)

WldFlwr - politics have always been part of liberal arts studies. While I was at college there was this guy Nixon who had to resign over being involved in the planning of a break-in at the headquarters of his opponent - and then lying under oath about it. You claim Clinton left the country in "moral bankruptcy" - you are wrong. It started even before Nixon - although he IS the presonification of moral bankruptcy, went on with Reagan/Ollie North and Iran-Contra, then later Clinton's definition of "is" and now the alleged WMD and other "reasons" for the invasion of Iraq. It's been a downhill slide for quite a while. Of course, we can go back further in American history and see how the Hearst Corp. caused the Spanish American War, or how several of our Presidents in the late 1800's and early 1900's either had mistresses or drinking problems... but it seems we only focus on the now, don't we? Or should I say - some of us focus on the now, other's on the second term of Clinton's presidency.

points well taken mtman, graph and corruption have always been part of government - that is the history of the human race. It is the acceptance of the behavior that has changed.

"some of us focus on the now, other's on the second term of Clinton's presidency."

well aren't you the pot calling the kettle black! good grief.

Maybe we should all try yet again starting looking forward.

The word you meant to use, WldFlwr, is graft, not "graph".

And actually, you are the main person on this blog always referring to the past as in Clinton's second term. The now is Bush and the invasion of Iraq, both premeditated (as per the Downing Street memo, among other first hand accounts) and the fabricated WMD ( which you still insist are there) as well as the change of tune by the Administration to the "march towards freedom" in the Middle East. Well over 100,000 in Washington DC right now expressing similar disgust with the lies as I have shown on this blog. Pretending to be a Christian does not make a man and his Administration righteous.

well it's an off day. right on- graft

Really? I may mention Clinton from time to time but you are one of those who can't get over where the President was the day Katrina hit as though his wherabouts had any impact at all on the storm.

And here you go RETRO again on the WMDs.

The WMD reports may have been fabricated but not by our administration - try Russia-Germany & France who confirmed everything with their "intelligence reports".

Why don't believe Hillary Clinton when she says everyone believed those reports? She was one of the senators involved in reviewing the situation. Sure fooled her I guess! You might want to rethink supporting a senator so gullible.

I do not insist the weapons are there, I allow as they may be or they may not be.

And since we have been in this conflict a couple of years why are you still looking backwards instead of forward???

If you read an actual report on the demonstrations in D.C. you will see there is this big conglomeration of protestors protesting everything under the sun. And don't forget those demonstrating against the demonstrations. And there is the usual collection of people with green hair.

And here is a question for you - WHO PAID FOR THE BUSES??? the ones that carried antiwar protestors from all across the nation. RUN THE MONEY MTMAN and tell us who is really behind this!!!

And just once I would like to read a NYTimes report that isn't full of those anonymous sources. Who in the White House did the reporter interview? A janitor? A cook? A gardner? Come on. We are all sick of these non-reports. How do we know the reporter didn't make it up, this is afterall the NY Times. It wouldn't be the first time.

You are really treading on thin ice determining that any individual is "pretending to be a Christian". You better leave judgement to God. I am sure you know the verse that covers this in the Gospels.

If in the final analysis history proves George Bush a fraud then so be it. In the meantime only God knows for sure and I bet He didn't tap you on the shoulder and tell you who is and who isn't.

Continue fantasizing Wldflr; A democracy in IRAQ ? It ain't gonna happen. Do you believe IRAN has a democracy or Syria ? Those countrys are run by theocratic dictators, not at all like our form of government ; At least so far.

cogito why is it that we smug americans always think there is only one form of government acceptable - ours? And isn't the lions share of disussion here about how functional or dysfunctional our government is?

in summation - I referenced the previous administration leaving this nation morally bankrupt. And one of our most stauch and devoted Democrats then said we need to bring Clinton back and "dam the morals".

that just about says it all

Who said that, WldFlwr? Are you reading into other peoples' words again? God didn't tap you on the shoulder and make you the keeper of absolute truth either. For the record, re-read my post - your so-called "moral bankruptcy" can be traced back a long way, and Richard Nixon still was the most morally "bankrupt" president we have ever had.

Of course we need to replace our current sources because we are running out (i.e. Oil)! It doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to figure this one out. Let's use some intelligence, wisdom, and common sense on this issue...but, then again, we may be running out of these (re)sources also......

mtman What About The Kids thread, today at 12:36.

entirely true I am not a keeper of the truth but I do not come on here and use the words "pretending to be a Christian" the way you did about our President.

and I will repost here for your benefit: I agree on Nixon and he was forced to resign right ahead of impeachment and stood a good chance of prison had Ford not pardoned him. He left Washington in the disgrace he so richly deserved.

However, our society has decided not to hold a president to any standard of moral behavior and honesty. Not only can a president behave despicably, he can lie to us - to his family - and in testimony to Congress with no penalty whatsoever.

It's the culture's acceptance that constitutes moral bankruptcy.

Jinny - how true. But we seem to need a wide variety of options because the needs of our respective geographic areas are so different.

That's why the majority allowed the Bush Administration to go to war in Iraq based on false pretenses, and then the majority re-elected him. The culture accepted the WMD nonsense out of fear and misinformation - much worse than a fling with a ready and willing intern. Of course, you'll argue with that and whine about Clinton again, as you have shown yourself to have a one track mind.

well mtman let's look at the other side of the coin. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you are 100% right about George Bush. Then wasn't re-electing the scoundrel another sign of moral bankruptcy?

actually this nation has never changed horses midstream and ousted an incumbant during a war. So I suppose that could be a new strategy for all future presidents - just be certain we are at war at the 4 year mark. Seems to work.

Here in Southwest WI we have one wind farm now and another that has been planned for the past three years. Not viable until energy bill passed. Now i expect it to proceed. Would like to see two more in this area. Will be working on that. Mtnman: We have other private individuals putting up one to three recycled old windmills from the Carter fields constructed in the late seventies. I an looking at that for my winery operation. I think windmills will look good in the vineyard and maybe they will kill the birds that eat my grapes. Alternative engery sources will be developed if the government supports them by tax incentives and or grants and loans. The same approach should be taken to rebuilding the hurricane areas.

Lets stay on the subject. Politics can be on another thread. thanks.

How is being fearful a sign of moral bankruptcy? A sign of naiveté and ignorance, maybe.

And if you voted for him, which is what you have implied many times, are you saying you are morally bankrupt? Please re-think, actually, please follow your own advise: read slowly, and re-read your own posts before you click "submit"

tkearns this is very interesting news. We are in west central WI and the farms have let the windmills just fall apart. Let's hope there are incentives and grants for this because it is important.

sutterhunter: You wondered how wildmills would hold up in 100 mph winds. A month or so ago one of the willmills i mentioned eariler buckled in less than 100 mph winds. One of three in the set. Mother nature will mess with any manbuilt item. The engineers just need to pick a design basis that meets the expected 100 years wx event. By doing that you eat the damage that occurs when and if the over 100 year event occurs. This is what happened with the levies. We simply can not afford to build to the improbable event. This is what is happening in the nuclear safety area. The plants are being forced to be designed for accidents that have a probability of occuring in excess of 10 to the minus 6. I do not know the details but i would bet that a cat 3 hurricane was the 100 year storm that was the balance point between the cost of the levee and the damage that would occur it the storm occured.
The cost of protecting from the storm should not be more than you are protecting.
Same story for alternative fuels. In the seventys the energy department and the oil companies were looking at shale oil. Which this contry has plenty of. But, to produce it the price of foreign oil would have to be 52 dollars a barrel to be a wash. I wonder if the cost of producing shale oil has increased with the price of oil?
Is a fresh look at shale oil in the new energy bill. The mountain states senators should have insured it was in there.

cza: take the political crap to another thread. Lets explore the energy subject here. If you have no ideas on the energy subject, just read and get smarter on something besides stupid politics. Politics will never solve anything just slow up the progress this great country makes every day regardless of who is the POTUS is.

wldflwr: I am not talking about the old water poumping windmills. I am talking about the wind powered electric generators. Drive down to Monfort and take a look. The old ones that have been upgraded on the 1st generation wind generators from CA which were first installed in the late seventies under the carter administration which had some incentives for wind generated electricity. This jump started the wind electric generator industry and it has growen ver since. Too slow a growth, but one generator will power 450 homes now where the first generation was only 5 to 10 homes.
Wind has to be used with other sources since the wind does not blow all the time but it is clean and becoming more efficient all the time. Will put up some links later that will allow you to learn about wild power in general and in wisconsin in particular.
The old ones on the farms in wisconsin are mostly for show now but some still work.

There was a big shale operation in western Colorado years ago. Don't know if it flew or not. Sunoco uses Canadian shale.

Farms here would do well to consider repairing the old windmills for water pumping and also looking to the turbines and anything in between.

You mentioned grants and I am wondering if the USDA grant program would extend to alternate energy sources.

Definately could use some helpful links! THANKS

I was on Colorado's Western Slope when the oil shale boom went bust in 1982, working at the time on large federal infrastructure projects in first Vail and then Grand Junction. Oil shale has not picked up since then because it was based on the $52 per barrel price in 1980, which is different than the same price in 2005 dollars. I follow Colorado news regularly - I'll be in Denver on business for the next two days - and no real plans are in place for a revival of oil shale.

tkearns - I'm not sure how much wind there is in Wisconsin, but I do know that in both Wyoming and California huge wind generation projects have been built, and that these structures (of which there are literally hundreds stretched out in rows over several miles) are placed at known windy areas, and I would imagine they are designed to withstand 100+ mph winds. Locally, there are more and more people using wind turbines, and the local electric cooperative does buy back excess power if that much is generated.

wldflwr: The Colorado shale operation in the eightys did not fly. TOSCO(the oil shale company) and Conoco were the oil companys involved. My wife worked for TOSCO that is how we got to colorado for 18 years. The point is that if the ecomomic models that were used in the economics of the project would have showen that oil would be over 60 $ /barrel in 2005 the project probably would have continued. Also if some benifit would have been given to the break from foreign oil the project would have continued. If the model would have showen that some of the energy requirements would have been supplied by alternative sources and the world need for energy(china) the project would have continued. It is quite possible that if all the above and other variables that we now know the project would have continued and the U. S. Might have become an oil exporter to counter the trade deficient.
Alas, as good as our engineers and econanmists are they cant forsee the furure very accurately. We need to get better and address the future both in the private and government sectors. Congress needs to address the problems, i. e. energy, Social security, and border control and stop trying to get elected by slaming the other side. It is not acceptable that it took 5 years to get the energy bill passed. It tales 20 years to build a nuclear power plant. Now it will take five years more because of the delay in the energy bill. Nuclear power, wind, solar, and ethanol will provide a tremendous number of jobs and will head us toward self sufficient energy. The economy will boom.

mtnman:wind is rated from 1 to 5 in terms of power. There are places in the mid west and in WI that have power at level 4. We have 20 large 3rd generation generators that can be seen from my home. Built by enron by the way. And operated by Florida Power and Light. The link below can send you to many places on the wind power subject. As you probably know the DOE has a wind research site in Golden and at rocky flats.
The local people are using it also and as i said before i am considering do it myself. I think most states or it may be a federal requirement that the utilities must buy back the excess. Most of the midwest utilities have gotten out of the generation business. They do not want to own the plants because the process pits them against there customers during the site approval, land acquistion and construction process. In fact i believe the utilities would love to buy there energy from outside their sales area.
Some of the generators are from those old 1980 wind sites in CA. The one that failed was one of them. I will visit that site soon and find out what the problem was.
http://www.eere.energe.gov is the link.

mtnman & wldflwr: Some other links:
http://www.rsvp.nrel.gov/program.html (this one covers the village program you talked about.)
http://wwwirecusa.org/ (this one covers the incentives for wisconsin and many other sites plus many other items pertaining to wind.)

and so what are prohibiting factors in using shale oil now? The shale is still there and goodness knows we need the oil.

Our state legislature is looking at requiring ethanol.

THANKS FOR THE LINKS. There is always more to learn.

http://www.irecusa.org/

this is the corrected link - there is a . missing

As far as energy conservation is concerned, I really feel that my part of Texas should attempt the solar power issue. At least then we can benefit from the hot sunny days (101-103 before the heat index) this has been the pattern for the last 3 days. If we captured solar energy to run our homes and cool them down, my electric bill would'nt be so darn high. =}

Other areas of the States could benefit from wind mills, just look at Chicago.
There are so many other options and each state should be responsible for looking in to what option would work best for them.

Wldflr . No smug American here. I only said, that society will never have a democracy.
Weather one like to ours dosen't matter.
It will take hundreds of years ,if ever , to get them to a mind set that allows a democracy.
Functional or unfunctional has nothing to do with the above.
What this country needs, Wldflr, is less of you moralists and more people that just do right by their fellow man. Mtnman , people like wldflr do believe "God" chose them to be keepers of our morals.
Hell, Jenny we been out of intelligence , wisdom and common sense in our government for at least 5 years :).

tKerns your comments were nice to read.
I read somewhere that it is possible to to purchase a single home wind generator,installed, for $3000 . But as long as the present regime is in power we will be lucky to see any governmet assistance to home owners . And you are right ; Every time wind is being used we ain't using oil and coal .

what a shame we can't harness the hot air in Washington and on blogs

Good one WldFlwr. I needed a laugh today.

Perry, posting has indeed improved the quality of your writing. You complain about the fact that I am not impressed with your spelling and then you post the following:

" Your a good friend Cogito because like he state its the thoughts that count no t just the spelling."

Perry, you simply cannot claim to be an english teacher and produce tortured syntax like that and not expect a certain degree of criticism. The most powerful teaching tool in the business is example. Is this the kind of example you set for your students? One would think that if you cared enough for the english language to teach the subject in school, you would care enough to learn to use it properly yourself.

Public Schools only constitute a floor beneath which we try to keep even the poorest of our citizens from falling. The sad quality of your writing, not merely your spelling, is testament to and a demonstration of that. Still, the quality of your posting is improving and you do deserve credit for that.

Shutterhunter, the purpose of a corporation is to earn a profit, not to suck up to a bunch of insane fanatics. If you don't get out of the way of the oil companies, you simply will get less and less oil. If you don't get out of the way of the lumber companies, you will get less and less lumber at higher and higher prices. If you wish to committ suicide, be my guest. The rest of us would rather not. Freedom works and bondage sucks, Period. If you cannot bring yourself to believe your eyes and believe in freedom, that is your choice. Enjoy.

Mr. Goober, there is nothing wrong with supplimenting energy from oil with energy from other sources. At one time, we got our oil from the hunting of whales. That became impractical and "Mineral Oil" became preferred. When petroleum becomes impractical, or we develop something that is better and cheaper, then we will convert to that. This does not have to be forced. As usual, the liberals simply cannot resist attemping to force their preferences down the throats of the rest of the nation and the world.

From a standpoint of physics and chemistry, oil is the energy of the sun, concentrated over past millenia. If enougy solar energy reached the surface of our earth to equal or exceed the level of energy concentrated in oil, we would all be dead. Period! If wind could equal or exceed the level of energy concentrated in oil, we would all be dealing with hurricane force winds all the time. If you characters are going to rhapsodize about "alternative energy", the least you can do is some homework.

well darryl we don't drill the whales anymore, we were running out of whales. And the same will, eventually, happen with oil fields.

I think we have something going forward here Darryl and would really like some positive input because I know you could give some! So far we are looking at developing wind and solar energies. It is clear both are growing. Will we ever be free of oil? Probably not for a very long time. Where you live there is enough wind to heat the whole state! Just harness the gusts coming off those Flat Irons.

If we want to think 2nd/3rd world we could realize that in Ireland they burn peat. We should have plenty of peat in the bogs of Wisconsin, Maine and Massachussetts. And then there are those who burn cow pies - goodness knows Wisconsin has enough of those! Now there is a renewable source for you. And on that subject don't forget the methane.

Hallmark burns wax in their furnaces.

We need to come up with something! Got any more ideas????

I always thought it curious that the descriptions of the Armageddon are about horses. Could be solely because 1st century writers only knew about horses. Could also be literal and we will all run out of gas.

WldFlwr,

Maybe because of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

Revalations.

cognito: I suggest you scan the sites i posted. Many incentives are arround for wind power. I suspect there will be more now that we have an energy policy. Somewhere in the late 80's or early ninetys the wind research center at rocky flats got closed for lack of funds. It started up again in the late nineties. Most of the wind incentives are by the states. Not all states have the wind asset.
Please limit your comments to the subject and leave the politics out of it. It causes me to leave the discussion because I m a technical man on this blog and dont want to talk politics. or bash anybody.
I believe that the $ 3000 wind generator is a little low. The connection to the grid costs that. But there is a guy locally who has made his own and used it to heat water to heat his house and does not connect to the grid. He has lots of hot water in the summer.
wldflwr: Peat is the next oil in a million years. And not to far from you a factory in Minnisota rens on methane from cow manure and i think other organic stuff. Every dump in the u. s. creates methane. we burn it off. Do we really need all the flares at refrinarys? Could they burn smaller and the rest used for a puropose. Little things but will all make a differance
No we will alyways need some oil. It will take a long time to use up the internal combustion engines that cannot use anything but gas. We need to go more to the synthedic oil for lubricution. There i go acting like an english teacher again.

Wldflwr: Many in wisconsin heat their homes by burning corn, wood and other stuff. Another sourse that can be good is the good old earth. Geothermal is a good initial sourse for heat and when combined with other sources can lower the cost of heat greatly. It also can be used to assist in airconditioning in the summer. There is lots of stuff out there. Economics is the answer. The DOE( and its predacessor ERDA) played around with a lot of these in the seventies. There was a geothermal installed in a national part using the water and steam from guysers. The problem was mineral precipation clogging up the pipes.
In the CA desert there is a solar steam generator that operated for a few years. The tower is still there. Don't know what the problem there was. But something cost too much or it would have taken off.
Solar can be used to make steam it just was not economicaly feasable when it was tried.
Why is shale oil not being explored today. No seed money from the congress which is the main thing the government should do. Joint projects with industry. The only coal gasification plant operating today was a joint effort with industry and goverment.
Alas but some would say that the government is paying off there buddies again. Guess you cant win. We would not be a great nation we are without government assistance to industry and vise versa. Government should do these things and cut out welfare. The welfare recipents would have their choice of jobs because they would be plentiful. Get off the soapbox jt.

caped crusader: You are right Nuclear has its place but solar and wind are also part of the mix as is oil. See above on the role of government.
In the seventies the DOE had many aalternative projects under consideration. but the enviromental considerations made most of them economically unviable. Coal gasification was one of the bigest. The biggest reason it did not go is the same reason no nuclear plants or refinerys have been built in the last 25 years. Enviromental concerns and don't build it my backyard.
Heck you can't even build wind power (clean) in the bay out east because it would ruin the view. DuH. I am all for the envirement, but there has to be tradeoffs to live the life style we have become accoustomed too.

Husband read about the methane run factory in MN. Has been talking about it.

We had a wood furnace when we moved in here and used it several years until the landlord had another place burn and his insurance company and ours - American Family - required that the wood furnace be dismantled and removed. They wouldn't even trust the local agent, sent in a regional guy with a clipboard for the inspection.

Why do people think there are still people "on welfare"? Wisconsin piloted the W2 that went into effect nationwide. At least in our state there is no welfare check. Anyone who wants assistance must work. If they need retraining it is provided. They can collect food stamps, are eligible for Section 8 subsidized housing, or energy assistance and transportation chits, and subsidized daycare and medicaid. But quit the job you lose the benefits.

Of course the problem is the lousy dead-end low-paying jobs available and these people certainly could use jobs in a new industry that has only growth potential! So they are a viable labor source for energy projects.

I think those who are grousing the loudest about government contracts are those who can't get one. There will always be the good ol' boy system in place, it is the nature of people.

Environmental concerns are going to ultimately be set aside in the interest of utilities. You don't see a lot of ladies in parkas out there protesting on behalf of birds and butterflies. The cold climate states require heat! The hot climate states require air-conditioning or at least fans. I think the trade-offs will come but perhaps not before the body count rises adequately from old folks and small children freezing in the north or dying of heatstroke in the south.

Welfare comes in many forms. Unemployment checks have not gone away. In our nations capital there are those who work long enough to draw unemployment and then do not go back to work until the benifits run out. then they start the cycle all over again. There are all kinds of welfare. WIC programs, senior programs and youmentioned others.
I do not believe there is a lot of good old boy in government contracts. The procurement system when done with the lowest bidder is fine. There is some GOB in the large contracts but usually it is giving companys contracts for jobs that no one else will do or is qualified to do. Such is the case with Hakliburton and Bechtel. We had support service contractors in vietnam(same ones as now with different names one of whom was Johnson with the president of the same name) without them we would have needed a million or more troops. With them we got some hot meals and slept in buildings.
I agree that wisconsin is great. Thats why I came back to die. Started here will end this journey here. Thanks for having the fredom to do so.

tkearns, I find it kind of amusing that you tell me "take the political crap to another thread", but in at least 6 of your posts you have the government involved. If you actually think about your statements, politics is what stands in the way of seriously developing alternative sources of energy. The technology has been around for quite a while, but the actual development of those technologies is almost discouraged by those in a position to make a difference.

Maybe this topic is one of your interests, sounds like it might be, then could you explain to me how is it that the Carter administration (out of office for 25 years!) is the only reference to some sort of program, via grants or funding, to actually address and act on the need to develop alternatives?

Tell me again how this is not political? Special interests, lobbies, cartels, - call them what you want. As long as the oil and automotive industries have the influence they have, the best interest of citizens (which happens to be the best interest of the nation too, but they are too blind, and too greedy, to see that) takes a back seat.

WldFlwr, your own hot air would be enough to power a small town. I am tired of your attacks on some of us, so here is some in return. Of course, my 'obtuse ignorance" does not allow me to understand this, but it might be clear to you. First you gotta take off the blinders though.

" On Sunday, a rally supporting the war drew roughly 500 participants. Speakers included veterans of World War II and the war in Iraq, as well as family members of soldiers killed in Iraq "

And I can tell you exactly why those who support the war do not show up in the streets, because the military instructs members and their families to steer clear of such demonstrations regardless of their intent. Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 26, 05 | 12:47 pm

Do you see the problem in your oh so sanctimonious statement? Did they forget to check with you? Or do you presume you speak for all military members and really have no authority to do so?

One discussion here is over no bid contracts but when a company is in theater, in place with men and equipment and there is good cause for a rush job it is the only sane thing to do. The bidding process takes time.

I agree Wisconsin is a good place to die. I am a Colorado native and the state has been californicated and you could not pay me to go back. Here we can drink the water, at least where we are; we can breathe the air. The crime rate is low. The college board scores are high.

However, the Department of Social Services did try to sneak a backdoor illegal gun registration system into the WIC program. That was rude.

I do believe I have seen the wind farm down there if it is visible on the way to Kentucky. Very impressive.

Where we are there is always a light breeze but nothing you could call wind. The ridge south of Tomah is never still, the wind blows all the time. They might be a good location for a system to be set up.

So do you think grants are available thru USDA for ag operations to set up alternative energy programs?

cza the topic is alternative sources of energy but I don't believe windbags are included although you might notice that in previous posts we did have some discussion about manure.

read above. Wrong again WldFlwr.

"what a shame we can't harness the hot air in Washington and on blogs"
Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 26, 05 | 2:53 pm

Csa: The problem seems to be is that you think the all government is all political and partissan. I worked for or with the government for 40 years and i never noticed that politics was involved in the projects i undertook. Maybe the program that was put in place may have been political. But whom ever the administration was Dem Or rep it did not effect the execution of the job. I flew helicopters in vietnam under Johnson and Nixon. My mission was the same the politics made no differance except that if the protests did not occur i would have avoided the second tour. But that makes no differance. In the Doe it made no differance the program was set and we went and executed. It so happens that i got to DOE when carter was in. The programs were in place. I don't know who orginated them. The congress funded them while Carter was in. Congrtess for the 40 years i was in the service was the body with the money. They funded the projects usually late which raised the costs.
So you have to lighten up on interperting whose side i am on. I am on the side of continuing to make this the greatest nation on this planet in spite of the politics. Politics are a chalange to those of us who want to do the right thing.

csa: You are ticking me off. I left this blog a couble of months ago because of you and cognito. It is true that the military and most sane people don't go to the streets to express their views. They do it at the voting machines. Please stop the personel attacks and address the subject. Or can you.

wldfwr: grants are available from the state of wisconsin foir alternative sources. see the links on the sites i posted.

tkearns, a couple of things:
1. there is no csa or cognito here.
2. you want to read personal attacks? Read the one Posted by: BobbyGee on Sep 26, 05 | 8:38 pm "Bureaucracy" thread. I expect you will comment on it directly.

You may also take some time and read lots of WldFlwr and DrD.

The way I see it, we ignore them as much as we can. But they do not stop. And sometimes, it gets to be a little too much, so I respond. You don't like it? Me neither.

tkearns two of the links didn't work, or at least not this afternoon. I will spend more time tomorrow reading thru them. THANKS

tkearns,

I think it's great that you worked for or with the government for 40 and politics was not involved, but I don't believe that's the case now. Politics can be very subtle, in deciding which programs to fund, which to start, which to cancel, who is to run them, and what their agendas are.

What people too often forget when they are voting for president or really ANY high position, is that they also get all the appointees that come with that election. Michael Brown at FEMA is a prime example. Bush brings with him all kinds of Assistant Secretaries for something or other who put large stamps on their programs. All too often it's THOSE people who have a real impact on what happens to Americans.

swimmom1dc: If i remember correctly you work for the VA. You are correct that the administration has appointees in every agency. you are also right that the abilities of these apointees vary widely. You are also right that these appointees have some influence on their programs. I would submit that that influence varies widely from agency to agency. I would also submit that the congress has a great influence as to where the compoents of the agency program are spent. For example, in the VA where a hospital or VA office is located was most likly worked out among the congressional delagates of the states effecte. The GAO investigates the VA projects at the request of congressional deligates. As they do every agencies program. Then there are the career employees while they are not to have political connections some of them do and they continue to follow the desires of their side no matter which party is in power.
This is why i stated above that politics are a chalenge to those who want to do the job under the current law and policy.
It may not be right but thats the way it is and thats the way it is going to stay. Nobody is going to change it.
I am retired military and i know all to well how the VA budget and policies have affected me. Most of the time it is the congress that has the biggest effect.
An example is the concurrent pay. I am 20% disabled, and it will be 10 more years before i receive concurrent pay. I will be 77 then and may be alive. That will be 35 years that I have been denied the disabled pay. Is it right that those that were disabled and left the service should get disabled pay and those who stayed and retired the retired pay became part of their retired pay. They get the same as the non disabled retiree, who may not have served in a position that would lead to disability.
I would submit that congress has a bigger effect on an agencies programs than the political appointees. He who has the GOLD controls the GOAL.
The most effect on what happens to americans is what congress does and DOES NOT DO.

and speaking of Congress not doing things - has anyone noticed that Congress has NOT passed the budget?

Last time they messed this up there were extensions and extensions and then layoffs of non-essential federal employees. In the end everyone was paid but in our community with a big VA hospital and two military installations there was a lot of panic.

tkearns: Welcome back, but be warned, nothing has changed. The czarina of political correctness has not changed her stilted anti-government stance. Her hatred of Bush remains pathological. Her lack of comprehension because of her devotion to the 'if it's good for New York it's good for everyone' remains pervasive.

Cogito ? He remains a barely literate buffoon.

Also, be aware the rest of the leftist garbage spewers are actively at work undermining their government in any way that they can. Nothing constructive. Just unbridled criticism. As to the charge of "personal attacks", they can't be personal if you don't (thankfully) know those who indignantly claim to be wounded. The only thing attacked is their shallow, politically poisoned minds.

Please stay with the blog. If you find the czarina and cogito a 'vexation to the spirit' you are much needed as a counter-balance to the hatred they preach.

tkearns,
I am not disagreeing with you. I agree that Congress, by controlling the purse strings, has a much larger role in federal programs. My point was only that the political effect goes much deeper into agencies and is always there, even if it is subtle.

Ever wonder why some VA hospitals are in the middle of nowhere with not a lot of vets around? Some Congressman or Senator either put money in the budget to build it, or put something in the law that we would build it in the place he designated. Or the Secretary bent to some other influence and decreed where it would be, despite staff work of years deciding the best place.

Wild, I can't remember when Congress did pass the budget before Oct. 1 and didn't have to pass a continuing resolution. It does wreak havoc. And many years ago, government was so messed up that they just changed the dates of the fiscal year to try to catch up.

BobbyGee, what you just spouted was a sign of your hatred for the left. I have been on this blog a while, and believe me, the right gives as good as it gets.

Let's not lump every one into the extremist category as there are some on each side. Not all people here with a chosen political affilliation are extreme.

Here we are allowed to give our opinions; however, picking on each other and name calling should be left to middle school students. Not to the adults on this blog.

Did you all know the chinese have been using methane for cooking for hundreds of years ?
They dump pig manure into cesterns and pipe the gas to there homes. I lived near a resort town in Michigan where people worked the summer jobs and lived on unemployment all winter and it was accepted as the norm.
cza I was starting to wonder about tkerns little phobia about politics. I don't really care what his are. And tkerns , it's cogito not "gognito"
I don't misspell your handle eh ?
If I was the cause of you leaving this blog you might as well go again as I am staying.
I always wondered how a disabled person could continue on in the service till retirement . I was disabled and had to leave. Seems to me if one is really disabled they wont have the abillity to do the jobs needed in the service. And tkrerns you too could have left the service got a civilian job and drew disibility all this time .

tkearns and cogito, maybe both of you should do some research on "concurrent receipt". Congress needs to change the law so a disabled military retirees do not have to fund their disability. The last Congress passed a limited concurrent receipt bill, but if only affected a very few people. DoD is against the bill because all the available funds are earmarked for Iraq (mistakenly and misleadingly called Global War on Terrorism (GWOT).

Contact your congressperson and tell them to pass concurrent receipt now.

big dog, we lose more and more VA benefits every year. I am 80% disabled and I can't even get in to see a dentist at the VA. There is no concurrent receipt for my perecentage. You would think that the people who would receive these bennies are the ones who were injured or became ill on active duty and were medically retired as I was.

I am holding down a job as best as I can because I need the money. I Like working though, it is better than sitting around.

I had a Congressman in my area who truley cared about the veterans in this area, unfortunately, when Texas was redistricted (sp?) we lost him. He now works for another district and my congressman cares very little for the veterans in this area.

through the wonders of modern medical technology there are active duty soldiers who are missing limbs.

They are serving because of a Nation is too embarrasmed to put them on the streets.

My heart goes out to those very courageous individuals........

they are serving because the new prostheses allow them to run and jump, or use computerized hands that are now fully functional.

Oops "embarrassed"

Well wldflwr, thermonuclear reactor technology is just around the corner. Thanks to field theory, hydrogen reactors will be quite scalable, so smaller ones will work well in vehicles. I expect things to be quite different in about 20 years. In addition, there is antimatter reactor technology a bit further down the road. So the time is actually approaching when we will no longer have to burn things for energy.

tkearns: Shale oil is presently too expensive to extract.

well Darryl this is exciting but I seriously doubt we will live long enough to see these improvements. So the more immediate concern will unfortunately be how to survive this winter for many people.

That's true, wldflwr. If we have enough oil for 500 years, that too is unlikely to be one of our problems. Around here, gas stations are going out of fashion. So I bought the fuel storage facilities from a gas station that had gone out of business. That allowed me to store enough fuel at the ranch for several months, if necessary ... both gasoline and diesel.

I seriously doubt gas stations are going out of fashion very many places. Farmers tend to have their own tanks but city slickers depend entirely on the pumps on the corners. Remember most of the population is urban.

cogito: no you don't misspell my handle you just leave out the "a" . I am also unable to find anything in your post that talks about the subject. You only attack my service. I guess you can't understand how when one believes in his country and wants to continue to serve he would ignore something that would disable him and not allow him to defend his country. I guess UAW workers are diffenrent. They may go the route you describe. I don't look bor disablilty pay only think I should receive it if i am entitled to it.
Since you are not leaving the blog and will not add to the subject material i will just ignore your posts and proceed with the discussion. Your personal attacks don't bother me at all, I just consider the source. Have a good life.

Are you reading tkearns? You want to talk about personal attacks? Do you think it can get any more personal than the following?

1. BobbyGee on Sep 27, 05 | 9:19 am (above)
2. WldFlwr on Sep 27, 05 | 4:50 pm (Bureaucracy). I'll save you the trouble of looking for that one (btw, misspellings are her own). "well now Darryl swimmom knows all about bureacracy. She IS bureacracy. Unless this is her day off[and yesterday too] she is sitting there at her desk at her federal job, blogging on taxpayer time on a government computer. And we are paying her to do this! The take-the-money-and-run civil servants gum up the works because they don't believe in what they are doing. They have no respect for their superiors or the rules at their jobs. This is also risky behavior because the government reserves the right to check on what the computers are being used for. And since she blasts the President on a regular basis she is in double jeopardy.

Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 27, 05 | 4:50 pm



Will you be fair and called them on it? And you might as well ask them to stay on topic, of course I'm not holding my breath. And I echo cogito's "If I was the cause of you leaving this blog you might as well go again as I am staying." Deal with it.

<<tkearns: Shale oil is presently too expensive to extract.>>Posted by: DrDarryl on Sep 27, 05 | 3:19 pm


Except for Canadians, who have one of the most productive and cheapest-to-harvest tar sand oil fields in the world (processing is extremely similar to shale). National Geographic did a story on it:

"You can get a glimpse of it just north of Fort McMurray, a former fur-trading outpost in the Canadian province of Alberta. Just where the highway crosses the Athabasca River, veins of black, tarry sand streak the riverbanks. On a hot day tar sand is sticky and smells like fresh asphalt—the smell of money the locals call it. No wonder they're smug. The tar-sand deposits here and elsewhere in Alberta hold the equivalent of more than 1.6 trillion barrels of oil—an amount that may exceed the world's remaining reserves of ordinary crude. But this is no ordinary crude. In fact, it's a residue created when conventional oil escaped from its birthplace deep in the Earth's crust and was degraded into tar by groundwater and bacteria.

Most of the tar sand lies too deep or in deposits too sparse to be exploited. But oil-sand companies got a boost in the 1990s as technology improved and Canada cut the first few years of the royalties that companies were required to pay. The Alberta government reckons that 174 billion barrels could now be tapped economically. Last year the U.S. Department of Energy agreed and included that number in Canada's proven reserves. The move catapulted Canada to second place in the ranking of oil-rich states, right behind Saudi Arabia—and ahead of Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait."

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0406/feature5/fulltext.html?fs=plasma.nationalgeographic.com

<<Wind and solar are unreliable. You cannot sit around hoping that the sun will shine or the wind will blow in order to power a nation.>>Posted by: CapedCrusader on Sep 22, 05 | 3:55 pm

Why are you under the impression only one or two sources of alternative energy can be used? Mix wind, solar, geo, tidal, dams, nuclear and bio fuels and there is plenty to replace oil.

bigdog: You need to do the research on concurrent receipt. The bill congress passed has over 700 people in all services trying to find out who is entitled to it. You have to be a lawyer to figure out the various arms pertaining to this. An example is you are entitled to it if you have a purple heart medal. However the injury you received to get the purple heart must be the cause of your disability. I am entitled to a purple heart but never really gave a darn. At the time a PH and 15 cents would get you a cup of coffee. That is not the case now. I applied for mine when a Senator Kerry made you a hero by having several purple hearts . Still have not received it. It is in the pentagon somewhere. I guess thay are bussy fighting the mislabled war. I have enperiance fighting mislabled wars also. The one i fought is also mislabled as to which administration it belonged too. Thanks for your support cogNITo

terrylT: Well, what would you expect from a "Nazi" ? That's what your 'side' uses to brand someone with whom they disagree. You are correct. When anyone wants to resort to name-calling I can give as good as I get. I don't enjoy having to get into the mud but will not avoid it when it becomes necessary. I've turned the other cheek too long. Insult me and you can expect to be insulted in return. Do you think that's un-christian enough to avoid the standard 'part of the christian right slur' ? I'm not Mel. I will not make his mistakes and will not be run off by psuedo-intellectuals reciting little more than left-wing mantras. There's not one of you on your 'side' that has ever made a compelling argument for or against any topic. Nothing but pure Bush bashing, anti-government posturing and destructive rhetoric. To top it off, most are functionally illiterate.

In fact an army aviator with three limbs damaged may return to flight in the neer future.

drDarryl: What is the date of that economic anaylsis that says shale oil is too expensive to extract? What technology is assumed for extraction?

<<I.T. guy>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 22, 05 | 8:57 pm

Watch it with those kind of remarks...

I believe i asked earlier that all personal attacks be curtailed. I only ralied against the one who have attacked me. I am only asking that you don't attack me. I could care less what you do to each other. It just makes it hard to follow the discussion because i will in the future ignore and post that contains a personal attack. Defetes the purpose of the Blog. Maybe we should post a topic with the subject personal attacks and you all can have a ball.

Gosh, I read this blog sometimes and wonder how many of you are parents. Didn't any of you teach your kids not to call eachother names or point your finger at people? I guess that most here are in their late middle years, maybe 35-49...yet acting like my pre-schooler...how shameful.

tkearns a tad off subject but it is decidedly not kewl to put in for one's purple heart at least not in some units. The family seems to think it is special but not the soldier.

oops "and" should be "any"

sp1der: the full statement was -
"KLC is an I.T. guy with a marketing firm, doesn't pass himself off as anything else."

"I.T. guy" isn't any sort of insult, it is a job description. And this statement certainly is no reflection on the quality of the job the individual is doing. He does a fine job. The gentleman is frequently asked to be Solomon. GO BOB! AND THANKYOU FOR A JOB WELL DONE!

That answered my question. Thanks. BTW, when did I attack you? Your post was quite specific, please clarify.

Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 27, 05 | 10:25 pm

;)

my sources tell me Canada is our second largest supplier of oil. And we don't need Gulf ports to import from there. But do we have any northern refineries? or can we afford to import the finished products?

And your sources are....??? Once again, you make a statement and back it up with nothing.

My "sources" tell me Canada is not the second, it is the 1st supplier.

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

There are others, but those other sources might offend your sensibilities.

I doubt anyone on this blog watches Bill Maher, but he had Willy Nelson on last Friday. Nelson runs his tour bus, and his autos on fuel derived from vegetable oil. He is an advocate for farmers, especially small farmers, and says we can grow our raw material for fuel oil. We put a man on the moon, and we could do this too. The problem is that the oil companies don't want to change anything, and since they have a strangle hold on the federal government, the idea of vegetable oil for fuel won't get out of the dugout, much less up to the plate. I doubt that any of us on this site will see any change in our lifetimes. It will take a disaster of MAJOR proportions and much devastation to get the attention of the powerful ones (if then).
Off the subject, but those who think that GWB accepting blame for the foul ups in Katrina is noble and sincere, remember that he can't run for re-election; Cheney won't run so they have nothing to lose by eating humble pie. It's damage control for the Repubs, nothing more.
I wonder what would happen if those of us on this blog came face to face in a disaster, and had to rely on one another to survive.

Well we have had two major disasters so far and there are two tropical disturbances being watched tonight in the Caribbean and the Atlantic. There are 8 more weeks of hurricane season.

And during all this fracas the media hasn't covered the multiple earthquakes along the San Andreas, not to mention the earthquake in Maine. So we have plenty of disaster opportunities ahead of us.

Damage control isn't going to work for either party in this. Both got black eyes from Katrina.

In the corn belt the idea of using corn for anything is interesting. I think people who are able will turn to alternatives. But most people are in urban areas without the resources to switch. The hybrid cars may catch on in cities where they are safer to drive. They probably won't in the rural areas.

We are rather spread out here on the blog but every area of the nation has its own disasters. If we have learned nothing else from 2005 it should be that survival is our responsibility and if we expect help from our local governments it is up to us to see the plans are in place and workable before disasters strike.

If we on the blog were all thrown together in the same disaster - this is America - we would set aside the differences and help each other out. America is one big dysfunctional family but when we need to pull together we do, much to the everylasting amazement of other countries and sometimes of ourselves.

hybrids aren't the answer. I read recently that gas would have to get up to $9+ a gallon over the next decade before they would pay off. Getting a hybrid now is only making a statement, which is good. We have to find an alternative for gasoline.

It is unrealistic to believe that alternative energy souces can replace our current energy needs in the foreseeable future. However, that does not mean we should not aggressively pursue the development of wind, solar, water and nuclear energy. These sources will reduce the amount of fossil fuels consumed or at least slow the rate of increase. As technology improves over time, and new innovations come on line, we might well see a source replacing most of our fossil fuel consumption.

Necessity being the mother of invention, we were close to a political breakthrough on seeking alternative energy sources during the Middle East oil embargo in 1973. Unfortunately, the Arabs turned the pumps on and petroleum exporting returned to normal. Today we are still faced with politics as the stumbling block to alternative fuels. Politics and economics combine to hinder real breakthroughs in alternative energy source development. It is time to take a closer look. Sometime in the next few years, we will have to face the fact that the cost of using fossil fuels is going to drastically change world economies. Unfortunately we, the U.S., will have the most to lose. Economies that use fuel wisely and with a sense of economizing will do best. Fuel as a commodity for convenience and pleasure will no longer be justfiable. This means having to give up business as usual and I'm not sure Americans are willing to make that sacrifice soon enough.

Once again, Good Morning America had an interesting story this morning. They showed that the ice caps in the North Pole have melted 30% since 1970. We are losing them at roughly 10% per decade. This is causing the increasing heat in the lower 48 states and the increase in hurricane activity due to the increase in water tempratures.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Science/story?id=1164442&page=1

That is the web site for the story. I hope I put the link up the correct way.

Somthing needs to be done about this as far as energy conservation is concerned. But how long would it actually take for these plans to be implemented?

BobbyGee, once again you have made an unwarrented attack in your Sep 27 10:04 pm post.

I merely made a statement concerning how childish the attacks can be, and that goes for both sides.

I don't lump any action into being Christian or un-Christian as I am not a Christian myself.

In earlier blog topics I, too, slung insults at others. I have learned the childishness of that behavior and have attempted to curb it.

I don't appreciate being lumped in to a category with others on this blog who make personal attacks or who have no intelligent conversation to bring to the table.

TerrylT: The report you posted sounds like mother nature at work again. There is tundra under the Ice. That must mean that at some point the ice was not there. Suppose it is a million year cycle that we as mere mortals know nothing about.
In this day and age i do not believe very many media stories. Time (and a short period at that) has showen many of them to be untrue. It seems that we have run out of reporters that just report the facts and research the history or the science backing up the facts. Scare the readers sells papers. Why are the most watched shows on TV crime shows. The american people need to read more.
I have over the past several days asked questions on statement made on this blog. I havent gotten many answers.
re: the energy conservation. That starts with the individual. The me-first additude of most americans will not support conservation.
In my former life i had a conservation slogan: "Conserve water, shower with a friend, preferability with a good friend." We don't do that enough anymore.

I am quite surpirsed to see the left is at work again trying to spread their discredited "man is causing global warming" trash on this site. The planet has and always will go through weather/climate cycles. These things cannot be significantly altered by man's activities. To believe in such tripe, one must believe that man is far more powerful than he actually is.

Bobbygee: You are right after 1973 we got big into alternative fuels. ERDA the predecessor to the energy department had a big program for alternative and even big projects, both fossel and nuclear to make us self sufficient in energy. This continued into the eighties until the enviromental concerns out voted the need to be self sufficient and use clean sources for our energy. The energy department in the late 70's and early eighties had more than 20 r&d projects on alternative fuels. It also had at least 10 demonstration projects to gasify caol and make it a clean burning sourse. One of the problems was what to do with the elemental sulfur that would be extracted from the coal. Enviromental concerns and congress soon killed all of these projects. One was built, but mostly with private funds. It was the Midwestern Coal Gasification Plant I believe in the Dakotas. I think it is still running. I wonder what the economics of its operation are? Anybody have a link where that could be checked out. I am sure that some of the technologys that the DOE examined in the 70's may deserve another look. Maybe we should look into spending money on energy than building a cat 5 levee for the big easy. The next cat 5 storm will not hit for ober 100 years. The U. S. may not exist in a 100 years if we don't solve the energy thing.

Gremlin: It is possible that man has some effect on the wx/climate cycles. However, i believe that the effect probably only works to lenghten or shorten the cycles. The "intelegent creator" is still in charge and the world will not end unless he or she wants it to.

Pish, posh Gremlin and tkearns.

<<Off the subject, but those who think that GWB accepting blame for the foul ups in Katrina is noble and sincere, remember that he can't run for re-election; Cheney won't run so they have nothing to lose by eating humble pie. It's damage control for the Repubs, nothing more.
I wonder what would happen if those of us on this blog came face to face in a disaster, and had to rely on one another to survive.>>Posted by: Dickon on Sep 27, 05 | 11:58 pm

The problem is that people take his acceptance of responsibility to infer that it might not have been his responsibility. As long as FEMA is the player, then as the leader of our nation--it was always his responsibility, whether or not he acknowledges it. His statement, IMO, says the American people are too stupid to know better.

tkearns, as one who is not a member of either the left party or the right party, I will share my opinion that BobbyG is pretty accurate in his appraisal. No question that both extremes insult the other often here. However, the mmbers of the left are far more likely to scream about being "offended" about insults from the other side. They are also much more likely to reply with namecalling when they are nailed on a weak point in their argument. Bobby named two of them and you can probably guess the rest especially the teacher and the guy that says he lives in the mountains. Gosh what hot air balloons they are at least in my opinion.

To all those thinking solar isn't viable...it already is, and in use here in the states

"A solar dish farm covering 11 square miles hypothetically could produce as much electricity per year as Hoover Dam, and a farm 100 miles by 100 miles in the southwestern U.S. could provide as much electricity as is needed to power the entire country."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041110163722.htm

Failure to solve "the energy thing" will not be the reason if our country does not exist in 100 years. The cause will be the stripping away of the freedoms provided for in the constitution. People may not put up with it for another 100 years.

You've got it wrong, Gremlin, man is not causing global warming, he's just contributing an increased amount of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere which helps cause a greenhouse effect__i.e. increased temperatures.

It's neither a left or right thing.

It's just the way it is.

What does pish ... posh mean?
Doesn't anybody know anything about the solar steam generator in the ca desert? I got no response when i asked about it. It covered about 50 acres. Was a tower surrounded by mirrors that focused the sun on to a boiler that produced steam. One of the problems was that the focused light was so strong it melted the boiler. Surely we can overcome that heat transfer problem.
What constitutional freedom has been stripped. I believe a few have been created by the Judiciary, but i know of none that have been stripped

tkearns:

From my post in a couple of our blog topics and todays at 1:10 pm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041110163722.htm

5pider, I would not want to rely on "hypothetical" electricity to power my toaster or my car or anything else. If that "hypothetical" information is true, why hasn't some utility company built it and cornered the market on powering the whole country?

In our lifetimes, oil will not be replaced as the primary fuel of our economy. We enough oil if the government would just let us drill for it, refine it and sell it without all the restrictions and taxes and regulations. Gas would be between $1 and $1.50 per gallon far into the future.

BTW for those who think that Bush just does whatever the oil industry wants, get your head examined. He has been in office almost 5 years and he is still letting the EPA block construction of any new oil refineries. It has been over 30 years since one has been built in this country and that is just plain stupid.

<<People may not put up with it for another 100 years.>>Posted by: jakethesnake on Sep 28, 05 | 1:14 pm

Very few libertarian minded folks here, jake...personally, 'may not' is being kind.

Liberty is defended in three stages: The ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. — Ambrose Bierce

TRy this link and you will be stunned at how much is going on in the renewable research. Try the "energy bill and you" spot on this page also. Pick your energy source and enjoy. It is just economics. Do we want energy independence or a levee for N. O. or more food stamps.


http://www.doe.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=ENERGYSOURCES

A nuke power plant hasent been built either. I fact that industry is gone It will take a few years to get back to where we were as world leaders in that industry. Can we build any new plants? No Not until the enviromental standards are made to be able to allow economical construction and operation. My propane company is now charging me a surcharge so they can comply with the HAZMAT laws. Since spilling a quart of antifreeze on the ground became a HASMAT emergencty the economics for new petro plants are not feasable.

Pish Posh means I don't agree. When one speaks of intelligence (creator or otherwise), one should know how to spell it.

Paul, the way YOU think it is does not correlate with reality.

The fanciful theory of global warming is the exclusive property of the left.

I have not really though anything the last few days here was all that intresting to comment on or take my take away from class prep to write. Now today I am being attacked aloung with my friend mtnman . sherlock I will tell you something right here and that the christian right white wingers on this site are the most arrogrant people on earth.They are judgemental and closed minded to anybody but their own kind.They swill up at people for their typing and now Mr. Nobody BobbyGee picks on coqito for his typing to. Like you on the extreme right got the best spellchecking systems. If I was correcting your papers Wildflowr and montego and Bobby I would give you people an F because you arent' capable aof literacy and you write as bad as your friend Bush talks which is pretty awful.

Oh I forgot you like paragraphs so here one is. Hope your happy now.No I will not allow kids in my class to ever spout off any right win propoganda or support for Bush in anyway. It would be morally wrong to expose the other kids to such monsterous thoughts.The new economic order will one day require the end of the fossel fuels like gasoline and dirty danger ous things like coal and nucleer opower.Solar energy will lead the way to the next step and the private auto will be athing of the past. As Al Gore said it is the greatest threat to thee planet right now. The ice packs are melting and unless we can all grow gills and live under water human kind may not survive the combustioin engine and its detruction of Mother Earth.

Please note, Gremlin, I said nothing about "global warming".

Seeing as tkearns is going to ignore my comments would some one explaine to him that I never attacked him, not once. And that I was only stating that I wondered about disabled vets staying in service ? Several persons have enlightened me and I thank them.
Perry Mc ; You must know that people that resort to name calling and inuendo really have nothing to say . It is kinda like yelling loudest to win an argument ? :)) Only I too wonder about your typing seeing as you are a teacher ? Please explaine ?

Freedoms won't be important if people are freezing to death in the winters and dying from the heat in the summers. We need to find new means of creating energy.

Why are we dismantling the hydroelectric dams in this country? Are they in dire disrepair we don't want to fix? Are the environmentalists insisting we will be a better nation by returning the valleys to their natural habitat? If we need to look at water as a renewable source it would seem the wrong course.

I think as soon as we try to build a new nuclear energy plant the world is going to start screaming unfair! Every time someone starts construction who isn't on "our team" we immediately accuse them of building a weapons system. Well maybe they are OR maybe they want to use nuclear energy in their nation. One presumes we would actually allow U.N. inspections and direction in this project which may be the difference but it certainly will stir up a clammer.

This is not a cause to not proceed but there are those who will be concerned about our "image" - another reason "they hate us".

Perhaps nations are going to not worry about image and proceed within their borders to develop energy sources no matter what the U.N. has to say.

let me put this another way - if we tell Iran they cannot develop nuclear plants, can Iran tell us we cannot?

tkeanrs your propane company is going to tack on a delivery surcharge if you are serviced by truck. We dropped propane years ago and went to electricity. The new rate increase request in our state for electricity is at 4.8% which is a tad better than the 70% projected increase for propane this winter.

2:45 pm- Lord lead me not into temptation! oh thankyou! amen

<<5pider, I would not want to rely on "hypothetical" electricity to power my toaster or my car or anything else. If that "hypothetical" information is true, why hasn't some utility company built it and cornered the market on powering the whole country>>Posted by: JREwing on Sep 28, 05 | 1:52 pm

Did you not read the article? It is already in use. The issue that is being worked on now, is not whether a building can have one and supply its own power, as is currently being done, but how to manage a large 'field' of them at one time. Who cares if a utility company does it or not. Put one on homes so it can be sold back to the utility sounds much better--since they have to by law buy any excess power generated.

Would not using one in conjunction with traditional methods not reduce our consumption of foreign oil? The technology is proven. Furthermore, don't use the resistance of current utilities to keep from building brand spanking new infrastructure due to Republi-Crat subsidies as an excuse for ignoring it. Remember the Tucker automobile? Another proven technology sunk by shallow minded Big 3 Auto manufactureres--fuel injection.

The Commander In Chief takes enormous and unjustified bashing on this blog by the lefties like mtnman, perry, cza, cogito and assorted other un-American liberals. You are so unhappy here in America that I think for your own peace of mind you should go live in some socialist paradise in Europe. Too bad the old commies aren't running the USSR anymore.

Thank you, BobbyGee, for telling it is like it is. Howard Cosell used to say that but you actually did it.

<<No I will not allow kids in my class to ever spout off any right win propoganda or support for Bush in anyway.>>Posted by: PerryMcKenzie on Sep 28, 05 | 2:45 pm

how dare you take it upon yourself to teach my children not to exercise their right to free speech. But, being that your position means you can spout yours and them not theirs, you are as dangerous to our Constitution as it gets. I suppose you even think gun control is actually legal.

Amen to 5p1der's post at 1:57 p.m. and tkearns should just look around if he isn't aware of liberties we are losing as they flush our Constitution.

<<The Commander In Chief takes enormous and unjustified bashing on this blog by the lefties like mtnman, perry, cza, cogito and assorted other un-American liberals. >>Posted by: SgtSlaughter on Sep 28, 05 | 3:47 pm


As well as by people who can read the plainly written English of the Constitution for the United States of America--but then, us folks don't care if they are Rep. or Dem.--which is all the same to us. Just a matter of WHICH Constitutional violations will continue to be perpetrated. I took an oath to defend my Constitution against domestic enemies--didn't you?

Gun control, treason of the drug war, War Powers Act, (un)Patriot Act, etc.--violation upon violation by Republi-Crats.

5p1der RELAX! I raised 8 kids and grandkids #16 & #17 are arriving by Christmas. Actual children don't discuss politics. You would be hard pressed to find a high school student who could give you the date of the War of 1812.

Actually Sgt the new commies are running Russia. Putin is reinstating it. His first major step was to redistrict into seven provinces and to retake contol of the media. He is well on his way.

By the way, anyone know what Russia is doing these days about alternate energy?

WldFlwr,

The Russians are just about to begin pumping oil from wells drilled off the coast of Sakhalin Island.

Thank you, Exxon Mobil.

As reported in the NY Times, the event is being hearlded as this decade's "Alaska North Slope".

So, Maybe they don't need alternative energy.

I feel this is a fascinating new topic for all to participate. The best new idea that I have heard for a new energy source is the one that uses centrifical force applied to recycled aluminum cans to generate heat, steam and thereby create more energy than most other sources. I do not know it's formal name and I just learned of it last week from a teacher of environmental science. It is eco-friendly, clean and the cans are plentiful. Please all give it strong consideration. In summation, as a fellow teacher, I feel it necessary to point out that the attacks on PerryMckenzie are childish to the point of sarcasm. Her style of writing may not be the one I would choose yet it is her decision alone and not for her political opponents to make.

well now that raises another question, If ExxonMobil is working with the Russians do we collect any taxes from this venture?

demo - this is really interesting! aluminum cans should be plentiful!

The true exasperation with Perry is not her "proclaimed profession", her "writing style" or her "politics". We would all really like to hear her thoughts on the topic - any topic. She has yet to share them.

I do agree with 5p1der that it is wrong for a teacher to be so controlling about what students can talk about in class. As a member of the PTA, I would speak out against it in my community. Yes, little kids probably don't know about politics but it is not nice to hear a authority figure like a teacher say terrible things about the president of our country even if I did not vote for him.

<<5p1der RELAX! I raised 8 kids and grandkids #16 & #17 are arriving by Christmas. Actual children don't discuss politics. You would be hard pressed to find a high school student who could give you the date of the War of 1812.>>
Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 28, 05 | 4:00 pm

And none of them have had Civics, Social Studies, or History classes where political discussion is a matter of the course? A teacher who abuses their position to usurp parental rights to teach their children their beliefs should not be a teacher in public education. It is not Perry's job to shut their political idealogies up--to pose alternative ideas, yes. What is morally reprehensible is a teacher teaching tyranny.

Helen, Perry tells us she is a graduate of a popular university the name of which she cannot spell and the entrance criteria for which is an IQ 145. It is unlikely she teaches anything anywhere but she claims to be an English teacher. Nobody involved in education or who actually attended college takes this seriously. She was very busy here over her "summer brake" and assures us that "sintax" in writing is not important. So don't be concerned.

But we really would like to hear her thoughts on the topic!

Back after a few days, but I see things do not change much here. I went back through the blog to February, trying to find a quote from Red in blue County where he proudly told of teaching 4th grade children how to hate the Democrats. It's the equivalent of what Perry is saying concerning the Bush Administration. I taught school for several weeks shortly after getting out of college. My personal belief is that it is not a teacher's job to teach beliefs but rather facts. I don't agree with anyone who would use the position of public school teacher to push an agenda, whether it is one I agree with or not.

has it occured to anyone that this is a blog--not a research paper, thesis, or even a letter home--so why does it matr if te spllng or grmr is wrg?

There is an experiment that has proven time and again that so long as certain letters of a word are intact, the brain will make up for the shortcomming and read it correctly. And since noone is being graded for such--WHO CARES?

It is the ideas that count. Next person that insults another for grammar and spelling is going to be flammed until the insults stop. It will be my newly self-designated role...

Hey, mtnman, can you provide any specs on the alternative energy sources your house uses? A lot of folks seem to think that unless a utility company is doing it, the alternatives aren't feasible...

5p1der, my kids ranged from genius to "average" and some showed more interest in the world than others. The average one, when in 7th grade, thought the right to bear arms was the right to wear short sleeved shirts.

I homeschooled my youngest four and yes discussions were part of the curriculum. But have you ever seen Jay Walking? Jay Leno interviews college grads on graduation day and they can't name any of our leaders or tell him when the American Civil War was. Even if students are discussing it, it doesn't mean they are going to pay enough attention to remember it.

True tyranny cannot be taught. It is an inborn talent.

I wasn't disagreeing with you 5p1der, just pointing out that it could always be worse. While your children may pay attention to current events, you can be sure that most children do not.

mtman, AMEN!

I, too, was not disagreeing with you, that children do not discuss politics (outside of class). So that wasn't my point. Civics, Social Studies and history *require* political discussion in order to be taught at all. If a teacher is not allowing discussion as Perry states, then how are these children learning these subjects to ANY extent? That just screams abuse of power considering the position over children. There is a reason propganda is illegal for publicly owned institutions. (Despite what the ONDCP actually practices...)

I am not aware that my kids ever had any teachers with such obvious agendas. On the other hand, I think that "political correctness" has sometimes gone too far. My daughter was taking high school government class at the height of the Clinton impeachment. Thinking this was a "teachable moment" of government in action, I was stunned that the school wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Why can't we all just get along?

Oh yeah, I forgot....liberals

5p1der - thank you for the question. The main sources of heat in my home are solar gain (provided by south facing glass eating interior space) combined with radiant floor heat and an efficient air-tight woodstove. I use bio-diesel as often as I can in my company vehicles, which include 4 diesel trucks and a backhoe and diesel compactor also. One of the primary aspects of my business is supplying and installing cisterns and water tanks for roofwater collection - as here in the Southwest, water is a major issue. Many of my clients live in or are building homes that are "self-contained" - meaning they rely on solar panels and/or wind generators for their power, rainwater "harvesting" for their water supply, and often the homes are built out of recycled materials to boot. My office/shop building is supplied by rainwater collection also. I know for a fact that many of the alternatives work, as I have lived with them myself or I'm around them constantly. It may be difficult for some in cities or in areas where alternatives seem like a strange and unusable technology, but the fact is that regardless of where someone lives, some kind of alternative energy form (as opposed to straight fossil fuel) is available if one really wants to use it.

Red - funny you would show up... tell everyone again how you taught those 4-graders in Minnesota how bad the Democrats are. You were so proud of that a few months ago.

"(provided by south facing glass eating interior space)" in my 6:03PM post should read "heating" instead of "eating".

Wildflwr, yes I know about Putin. He could be more dangerous than the doddering old commies in the Politburo.

Hey Mtnman, it has long time, just been reading and trying to keep up with the blog. Who is this Perry nut?...a new friend of yours? Now they have me working with the sixth graders in California... the kids are even more attuned with current events here...and hence more conservative than last year's class. More proof there is a God!!! This is going to be easy year.
BTW... who chased off Mel?

it's okay mtman because as 1der pointed out our minds read it as heating.

Good thing you mentioned radiant floor heating which just has to be more efficient than forced air or standing heaters.

With all of the alternative energy systems we are going to have to face the initial implementation cost which will be the roadblock for many people. If the lobbies in D.C. didn't work so hard to prevent progress in this area we might well come up with legitimate assistance in the switchovers which would make these plans accessible.

red in blue - mel was being hounded by the "clique" that has tried sometimes successfully and othertimes unsuccessfully to remove people who disagree with their political views. Mel decided rather than be "chased off" he would go out in flames which he did. He posted some truly offensive items that would have gotten anyone removed, sort of a last up-yours.

Hi Wldflwr…Too bad about Mel… I guess liberals are just too sensitive these days. Most have something to do with losing all those elections. Unfortunately, their misplaced sensibilities don't apply to certain things like adulterous Presidents and their Beast-like wives…

WldFlwr - radiant is far more efficient than either forced air, baseboard, or free-standing heaters. It also is much more confortable and pleasant. These days, I've done even large commercial spaces with radiant heat, as the energy savings and confort are outweighing the slightly higher initial cost.

<<it's okay mtman because as 1der pointed out our minds read it as heating.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 28, 05 | 6:25 pm

No, it's missing one of the critical letters that cues the brain: the first letter of the word.

I would tell you more about the test if i could remember who did it or what it was called. But, part of the key is to have the first and last letter of the word.

Red in blue County,

Where have you been?

I thought you were serving time for plagerism.

Apparently, rehabilitation didn't work, you're still posting the same old neocon rightwing slogan kind of nonsense.

<<...adulterous Presidents…>>Posted by: Red in blue County on Sep 28, 05 | 6:41 pm

Do you realize how many of these our nation has had? Even during the more 'christian sensibility' times of decades past?

Cleveland (Democrat), Taft (Republican), Harding (Republican), Kennedy (Democrat)...to name a few whose last names aren't Clinton. And if adultery is only attributed to a Democrat, then Newt isn't gonna like you much. Apparently, it doesn't take communism to have McCarthyism.

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/personal/matt.davis/Cmabrigde/

whew...saved by the Web...

paul: I understand you're an editor, so I know you will not take it as an insult if I point out that it's 'plagiarism' not "plagerism".

RIBC, contrary to WldFlwr's spin, mel was "terminated" by the blog administrators after a few warnings he chose not to heed, and after posting truly offensive photograghs. Why don't you write Bob and ask him why mel is no longer allowed to post, instead of relying on any one blogger?

mtman I think a really good selling point on radiant floor heating would be the benefit for people with allergies. I can't think of anything worse than any form of forced air heat for people with allergies.

cza is completely wrong - mel chose his termination, planned it and carried it out with truly offensive flare knowing full well that KLC would have no choice. It put the control back in his own hands.

it is such a shame we do not have emoticon technology here. I can think of several appropriate ones. sigh

Doesn't bother me a bit, BobbyGee.

The meaning remains the same: posting stuff written by others as if it were your own. Stuff written, for example, by Ann Coulter.

sgt: I am looking arround to find the liberties that have been taken away. One of the places i am looking is this blog. No luck. Guess the people on this blog just talk about the lost liberties or rights. But, do not want to state them and state how we get them back. Guess i will have to look elsewhere. Maybe the 9th circuit court decisions.

We had this discussion before - so long as the item is offset with quotation marks with no claim of ownership by the poster it is not plagarism/plagiarism. There must be intent to present the thought as one's own and nobody puts their own words into quotation marks.

hmmm liberties actually lost.....can't really think of any unless you want to count taking knitting needles onto airplanes but is that truly a liberty? or just a privilege? There is a lot of blather on the subject but perhaps little substance in reality.

WldFlwr,

As regards the issue of "plagarism/plagiarism", there never should have been a discussion about it here. It should be understood by folks posting here what it is!

well now Paul I agree completely but since I was accused of it I feel free to comment on it. The people here, perhaps because of the attack mode of the blog, feel they must present documented supported ideas. That is unfortunate because it then stifles creative thinking which a blog should stimulate. Compounding the situation is the fact that sources quoted are not recognized by all as authoritative and reliable.

In floor heating is the best in the world. I would call it radient but i have a problem spelling radeimft. Mtnman have you put it under hardwood floors. If you have i am sure we could trade some lessons learned. I did some things i would not do again. Has to do with laying the wood floor. Nailing points to keep the floor sturdy and making repairs if necesary.
I have a high efficenty boiler that also supplies the hot water thru a heat exchanger. If i had it to do over again i would use geothermal also. Just did not think of it in time. Go back to my post of the DOE energy sources site for some great new ideas.

<<sgt: I am looking arround to find the liberties that have been taken away. One of the places i am looking is this blog. No luck. Guess the people on this blog just talk about the lost liberties or rights. But, do not want to state them and state how we get them back. Guess i will have to look elsewhere. Maybe the 9th circuit court decisions.>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 28, 05 | 8:38 pm

Why do you need to look any where than the Constitution itself? For instance:

Where is it enumerated in the Constitution that the President of the US has the authority to declare war? Refer to Article I and II

Where is it enumerated in the Constitution that ANY level of government within the bounderies of the US has the authority to regulate firearm ownership? (here's a hint: "...shall not be infringed.") Refer to 2nd Amendment (Bill of Rights Article the Fourth)

Where is it enumerated in the Constitution that the federal government can tell anyone what they can or cannot posses and use ? Refer to 9th Amendment (no, the mere possession of plutonium does indeed pose a threat to the Constitutional rights of those standing around you, so that doesn't apply)

Where is it enumerated in the Constitution that the federal government has the authority to tax for activities not enumerated in the Constitution? Refer to Article I and 10th Amendment

These are my favorites, if you want more info, you'll have to read the Constitution yourself. While you're at it, see if you can find the words 'Education', 'Housing and Urban Development' or any other of your favorite public programs which trample the 9th and 10th Amendments.

These points have been made several times in this blog--I know, because I point them out to the 99% Republi-Crat user base all the time.

Thank you, 5p1der, for pointing these things out to us in such "plain English", just like the Constitution's written in.

PS> The solution to getting them back is to stop voting republi-crat, which has also been posted more than twice.

Your welcome, Paul. I knew you'd come around.

it is afterall, not french or lawyer-ese.

okay mtman gotta know - what is the best material for a radiant heated floor? And bearing in mind inflation and regional cost differentials what is the present square foot cost? just a swag please

TerrylT: Sorry for making what you consider to be an "unwarranted attack" by "lumping" you with others. I'm very pleased to having been mistaken. I'll be looking forward to your moderate posts.

tkearns is your boiler in house or external?

We have people in our area with external systems and this was used at Linden Hall in 1903 after the coal furnace blew up once inside the place. Solved that problem for the most part.

Don't know if insurance companies would consider external heating safer or not.

5pider do you really believe that a Democrat administration would do anything to reverse these matters?

Dickon: Good to see you're on the side of proper spelling. I am amazed to read so many comments that do not see it as being of any importance. All of us misspell from time to time, but some are notorious for just plain inability.

tkearns: I had not heard of the steam genrator. Very interesting. Remember what you post may not be read for its content. When you returned to the blog you had the ' audacity' to comment negatively on a couple of folks who love to argue for Bush-bashing sake. That is unforgiveable to those who only have political agendas relating to every topic.

5p1der: You lost me.I guess i need to read the constitution. I did not understand about half of that. will bone up and get back to you. What rights are we talking here?

<<5pider do you really believe that a Democrat administration would do anything to reverse these matters?>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 28, 05 | 9:34 pm

Why in the world would you think that I believe that? I am thoroughly anti-Republi-Crat (or Demo-Can, if it is preferable--Republi-Crat just sounds smoother).

whats a Republi-Crat? I need a new dictionary to play here.

<<5p1der: You lost me.I guess i need to read the constitution. I did not understand about half of that. will bone up and get back to you. What rights are we talking here?>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 28, 05 | 9:46 pm

Those granted by the 2nd, 9th, 10th Amendments. With regard to president having power to declare war, we are supposed to be protected from the powers King George III had by the seperation of powers--not re-instating King George.

1der, just asking, didn't mean to put such a spin on it. sorry about that, long day. I don't see hope of either party untangling the mess we find ourselves in. But I also don't see any new parties on the horizon offering decent alternatives.

I will be in over my head on this with 5p1der posting so may have to defer to the azure rodent from time to time. geesh

<<whats a Republi-Crat? I need a new dictionary to play here.>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 28, 05 | 9:49 pm

The only difference between a Republican and a Democrat is *which* constitutional violations will continue to be perpetrated on the American people; since both parties increase the size of government and increase taxation (now or later, George, does it really matter--an increase all the same), there really is very, very little difference between them. So, they are Republi-Crats. One party with a common goal: increase federal government size and the amount of taxes to burden us with.

wldflwr:Mine is propane and inside. Many in this area have gone to wood outside. Have to stock it once a day, maybe twice in cold wx. Big logs can be used even corn can be used to fire it. Many farmers use corn when the price drop below what it cost them to grow it.
your quewtion on the radiant floor: Put it in concrete is the least cost and the most common use at this time. Usually only in the basement. but is being put on all levels more and more often. You can even put into old houses.

Sticks and stones Brother Paul... your comments are still tripe.

nice to see nothing changes in here. lol

well red isn't it nice we can depend on some things in an undependable world?

Did or did not the congress authorize the president to use force to remove Sadam from power. I do not believe war has been declaired on any country. Only a war on terror. Much like the wars of the past on Poverty, Drugs and many others.
I don't think that the 2nd has been violated but i am willing to read it again.
Don't remember the 9th and 10th. Will refresh. But this should be on another blog not the energy one. Is there ione that fits? Lets have a constitution blog KLC.

<<1der, just asking, didn't mean to put such a spin on it. sorry about that, long day. I don't see hope of either party untangling the mess we find ourselves in. But I also don't see any new parties on the horizon offering decent alternatives.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 28, 05 | 9:53 pm

No problem here. Guessing by many of your previous posts, why don't you vote Libertarian?

Is it that you want to vote for the winner in a 50-50 stake or vote your pocketbook (I'm not jabbing, I really want to know)? Your posts indicate you don't trust either, yet you vote for them? Why short change yourself (or your family if you value THEIR rights)?

Minimum wage and Social Security is not worth losing the right to free speech, freedom of religion, the right to protect yourself from your own government, the right to be free from self-incrimination...I'll spare the rest. The Republi-Crat party is dismantling any semblence of *personal* liberty. Mayhap you have heard of the recent Supreme Court ruling which allows private property to be stolen and given to more affluent private persons?

I veiw it like this: I took an oath to defend my Constitution from domestic enemies. Voting for a Republi-Crat is voting to terminate that very Constitution, as witnessed by the multitude of public policies not enumerated in the Constitution, and would therefor be a violation of my oath.

Dickon, you are not the only Bill Maher's fan. I confess, I do not watch his show regularly, but I did catch the last one (Willie Nelson and the rest).

I agree, and I have said twice already, I think the oil lobby is much too strong to the detriment of all of us. Willie Nelson is but one who uses alternatives to gasoline (mtnman is another one).

I do not agree with you that hybrids are not the answer. They are not the only answer, but as of right now, hybrids at the very least offer a better MPG therefore contributing in a small way to less consumption and also fewer emissions. It's not only the amount of money one saves as in price per gallon, it's also the environmental benefit. What's wrong with that?

5p1der: Cite please where any of the rights you cite above have been infringed. Please share the rest. I would like to know. When i asked before what rights were violated you gave me your view of violations of the constitution. Help me understand.

<<Did or did not the congress authorize the president to use force to remove Sadam from power. I do not believe war has been declaired on any country. Only a war on terror. Much like the wars of the past on Poverty, Drugs and many others.
I don't think that the 2nd has been violated but i am willing to read it again.
Don't remember the 9th and 10th. Will refresh. But this should be on another blog not the energy one. Is there ione that fits? Lets have a constitution blog KLC.>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 28, 05 | 10:13 pm

Topic? The title at the top is only a guide...

Nothing about the current conflicts is illegal. The declaration of War leading to the Gulf War was never ended. Congress merely re-funded that effort and is clearly within their power. To my recollection, Congress pretty much, in one voice even, targeted the Taliban in Afghanistan. But this has nothing to do with the War Powers Act, in which Congress said the president has the authority to declare war--in direct conflict with the Constitution's Article I which gives that right solely to the Congress and therefor contridicts the Constitution.

As for the 2nd Amendment, unless a judge orders as part of the punishment for being convicted of a crime, noone *doesn't* have the right to own a firearm--yes, even a felon. Some firearms are "illegal" to own, even though the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed."

And finally, the 2 most important Amendments: 9 and 10. If it isn't an enumerated Constitutional power of the feds, they don't have that power. You have lost the right to your property via taxation, in order for the feds to pay for those programs--which they have no power to run anyway (Dept. of Education for instance--education is solely a 10th Amendment right)

<<5p1der: Cite please where any of the rights you cite above have been infringed. Please share the rest. I would like to know. When i asked before what rights were violated you gave me your view of violations of the constitution. Help me understand.>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 28, 05 | 10:22 pm


Here is an entire web site:

http://www.constitution.org/

here is another:

http://www.cato.org/

and for those who cheer Reagan and GW:

"On Spending, Bush is no Reagan"
http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0308-16.pdf

5p1der actually I did vote Libertarian ONCE but not as a party member. In our gubernatorial last time I could not in good conscience vote for either party candidate for several reasons so I voted for the local Libertarian candidate who I at least knew was an honest and sincere candidate. Actually our entire area voted for him. And he is so popular that in the recent city council elections [I don't live in town myself though] he resoundingly whomped an unopposed incumbant by not running at all.

Having been disillusioned by the process before I have no interest in partisan politics. It was fun while it lasted moving up in the hierarchy and working on the inside on a campaign but finally the wrong thing to do - for me.

You live in Wisconsin. I know who you are talking about--Ed Thompson.

on hybrid autos - nothing wrong with them at all and the half of the population living in cities where the usual speed is 25-35 mph can drive them safely enough. So that could help to solve a big problem since city congestion is a major pollution factor.

But don't expect anyone driving a country road to get into one. They don't do real well on the taxpayer half coming up over a hill with a Ram or a Silverado.

Education is no longer a right, it is compulsary which changes it entirely within the context of the freedoms in this country. Nobody has the right to not be educated. Big difference.

<<Education is no longer a right, it is compulsary which changes it entirely within the context of the freedoms in this country. Nobody has the right to not be educated. Big difference.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 28, 05 | 11:14 pm

The charge is whether it is a federal or state power to educate...a right of the states, not the fed, per the 10th Amendment.

Abolutely and Ed is a decent person who wants the world to know his name is NOT 'governor's brother'. He is a straight shooter and didn't try to run on anyone's coat-tails as the other candidates did. He would be a good governor provided he could get either party to cooperate which is, however, not probable.

I have only ever read about him, but EVERYTHING I do read about him is impressive. Obviously, he is a very respected Libertarian--didn't even run for the office he was elected to over the incumbent...LMAO!

A gracious bow to WldFlwr for bringing Ed up!

The whole education matter gets sticky because without a nationalized standard for education you end up with a very inequitable system with some states woefully behind others in the process. Even within a single state county to county you have kids unevenly educated which causes problems for the colleges receiving freshmen some of whom are able to work at sophomore level and some still a year or two remedial.

Until we have the national teachers' exam in place and mandatory in all states we will continue to have inequities for the kids. Testing the kids may give us guidelines on the needs in various districts but it doesn't really help at all if the entire system is running 50 different sets of standards nevermind the in-state discrepancies.

And the whole scene is ignoring the desperate need for vocational schooling to prepare people for actual employment.
We still have the whole thing designed for the college bound who are not the majority. So the value of a high school diploma is only that the individual stuck it out enough to get one. That does mean something in the job market but what if more kids had an opportunity to learn an actual marketable skill in high school? Pennsylvania has vo-tech high schools along side their regular schools.

and back to topic - we could be teaching courses in heating and plumbing meeting the public need for new energy systems as we have discussed this evening.

Yes, back to topic - WldFlwr, what do you mean Ram or Silverado vs. hybrid? i drive one (hybrid, I mean), and I can accelarate and even beat some of the conventional ones. I don't get your meaning. Care to explain?

In a head-on collision with some good ol' boy farmer coming over the center of a hill you would not survive the crash. The trucks are big, they are driven too fast and little cars are death traps. The other scenario is the little car coming around a blind curve and driving into a combine - same effect.

In the city they are entirely appropriate and a very good idea.

WldFlwr, you sound guilty of being a Democrat with that kind of talk.

Frankly, the overhead cost that is the federal government means less money to spend on education before even the first dollar is spent. It is hardly reasonable to think that a single standard is the way to learn either. Some learn better using different methods and not all people want their children educated the same. Kansas is a good example right now.

Why should people who want to educate their children in a private school have to pay for services not being rendered to them? If you don't use the electricity you don't pay for it--why is education different?


oh...um...go alternative energy--power to the people, not the utilities (no pun intended)!

I don't drive a "little car'. I am sure you are once again mistaken. Don't you get tired of being wrong?

<<I don't drive a "little car'. I am sure you are once again mistaken. Don't you get tired of being wrong?>>Posted by: cza on Sep 28, 05 | 11:42 pm

Perhaps you should elaborate? Until the very new Lexus suv hybrid came out, all of them were very little cars.

it is a power to weight ratio thing...

I should have been clearer: there are the Ford and Lexus SUVs, as well as a few other larger cars, all hybrid. They are not the small little things you seem to think they are.

Or was the ford suv hybrid first? oh well, all the suv hybrids are very new...

but they exist. We do have choices, gasoline powered cars are not the only option.There are gas (not gasoline), diesel, hybrid, etc. Being a little more aware helps.

Ah, but for someone who may not pay attention to the newest vehicles, they may not be aware of them since they only started to be sold here in the States in the past year.

Anyway, which one do you have?

You should read up on the Tucker car. Had it not been for the Big 3 with the backing of a corrupt too-big-for-its-britches federal government--we might well have been in hybrids 20 years ago.

http://www.tuckerclub.org/index.php

Fuel injection way ahead of its time, which of course was a boon to mpg when the Big 3 finally bowed to pressure...

And who says the federal government is a good thing?

1der my educational views are a-political and based on my education in the field, experience and observation.

The problem with the new SUV hybrids is that by the time you buy one the higher cost may outweight the savings you think you are going to get in gasoline.

now 5pider what is your alternative to the federal government? the problem with the anarchist approach is you really have to have something in place before you dismantle the existing government.

<<now 5pider what is your alternative to the federal government? the problem with the anarchist approach is you really have to have something in place before you dismantle the existing government.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 12:15 am

I never said get rid of it. Make it live within its Constitutional bounderies, yes. It serves a legitimate function--defense of the nation as a whole for instance--it is the illegitimate functions I concern myself with, as should all US citizens--for if there is no resistance to powers they do not have, what is to keep them from passing something as obscene as the (un)PATRIOT Act? Doh--too late.

The Law is the Constitution, not the 3 branches of the Republi-Crat party. Ever hear the song "Pigs (3 Different Ones)"--I'm almost certain it is about them:


Pink Floyd's Animals: Pigs (Three Different Ones) (Waters) 11:26

Big man, pig man, ha ha charade you are.
You well heeled big wheel, ha ha charade you are.
And when your hand is on your heart,
You're nearly a good laugh,
Almost a joker,
With your head down in the pig bin,
Saying "Keep on digging."
Pig stain on your fat chin.
What do you hope to find.
When you're down in the pig mine.
You're nearly a laugh,
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry.

Bus stop rat bag, ha ha charade you are.
You up old hag, ha ha charade you are.
You radiate cold shafts of broken glass.
You're nearly a good laugh,
Almost worth a quick grin.
You like the feel of steel,
You're hot stuff with a hatpin,
And good fun with a hand gun.
You're nearly a laugh,
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry.

Hey you, Whitehouse,
Ha ha charade you are.
You house proud town mouse,
Ha ha charade you are
You're trying to keep our feelings off the street.
You're nearly a real treat,
All tight lips and cold feet
And do you feel abused?
.....! .....! .....! .....!
You gotta stem the evil tide,
And keep it all on the inside.
Mary you're nearly a treat,
Mary you're nearly a treat
But you're really a cry.

well why malign the perfectly nice pigs?

The only problem with making the government adhere to what the Constitution says is nobody is going to actually agree on what it says. It has been read and misread and reread so many different ways nobody really knows the correct "interpretation". For example it is entirely clear in the writing it is a theocratic instrument and yet it is used as the foundation for removing every vestige of religion from the nation. You could have another uncivil war over interpreting it if you tried to actually enforce it.

and with that cheerful thought.....

"I can accelarate and even beat some of the conventional ones. "

CITY DRIVER!

Wow Doc, comparing my concerns over the oil and lumber industry to suicide. That’s a truly amazing juxtaposition.

Well, that is exactly what your ‘Get out of the way” attitude would amount to.

Just as I would never dream lecturing you on String Theory I will not sit idle and let you explain corporate profits to me. I’ve worked in retail for 26 years, much of that in management, and I know all about the dynamics of profit, probably better than you (unless you are going to tell me that along with being a physicist and inventor that you also hold an MBA) .

I also know that historically neither the oil or lumber industry had been very good corporate citizens and it is only through the efforts of the “fanatics” that we have any natural areas left and that there are any environmental guidelines that corporations have to follow.

Even a dog won’t soil where it sleeps but big industry tries to do that at every turn in the name of higher profits. The Bush Administration dismantled 10 years of gains in environmental protections in his first year in office so forgive me if I distrust his motives.

Teddy Roosevelt started the National Park System to protect natural areas and hold them in trust for future generations. He had the foresight to know, a century ago, that we would pave over paradise in the name of progress if left to own base inclinations.

Most of the lands in question are in National Forests or Wildlife Refuges which to put it bluntly makes me part owner of. So like it or not, I have a say in whether or not these lands are opened to “harvesting” of any kind. It is only an extremely selfish mind that would say damn the future as long as I can have my way now.

Thank God that your attitude is going the way of the dinosaurs as environmental protection has made steady gains in the public eye for the last twenty years.

And before you start spouting the company propaganda about how these companies take great care in protecting the environment I’d like to point out another wonderful industry that spends billions a year to tell us that they aren’t so bad. The tobacco industry would have us all believe that they have our best interest at heart when their product kills hundreds daily. So once again, forgive me if I not only distrust their intentions but stand on my soap box and scream at the top of my lungs the phrase B***S***!

You and I are oil and water, we will never mix. I suspect you are deeply ingrained with your intellectual snobbery while I never abide being condescended to so never the twain shall meet.

At least in my argument I’ve tried to put forth why I believe what I do instead of just belittling the opposing position and telling them they are stupid for even thinking that way.

Good Day Sir.

<<The only problem with making the government adhere to what the Constitution says is nobody is going to actually agree on what it says. >>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 12:57 am

And yet the States have been extremely frustrated with the Feds over this very issue for some time now. Ironically, predominently since the Republicans have had control of Congress and Executive branches, as the No Child Left Behind and drug re-import lawsuits has started to show us.

Clearly, I have missed a great deal here over the last few days.

The words of BobbyGee with regard to his assessment of the liberal element are words to live by. Newcomers take heed, the "arrogant riffraff" will show their true colors soon enough.

Spider, there is much that the feds should keep their hands off. Education is just one item. Do you think everyone should that gets elected to Congress should be compelled to actually read the Constitution? Nah, some of them may not be able to read a grocery list.

JREwing, you seem to know something about the oil industry. Excellent. We have some people here who don't know anything and are content to repeat the usual environmentalist nonsense straight from Mother Jones magazine. BTW, clever name especially for this topic. lol

If anyone wants to pay an extra $20,000 (plus interest if you finance it) for a small vehicle just because it's a hybrid, I guess that's your business. That same $20,000 will buy a lot of gas for my SUV.

Red, you can believe what Wildflwr said about Mel. She knows the facts. The others, as usual, have an interest in deceiving you.

<<Spider, there is much that the feds should keep their hands off. Education is just one item. Do you think everyone should that gets elected to Congress should be compelled to actually read the Constitution? Nah, some of them may not be able to read a grocery list.>>Posted by: montego on Sep 29, 05 | 9:12 am

Amen to that, montego!

Since I missed the debate on moral bankruptcy the other day, I must side with Wild on that one.

Slick Willie was a sleazy, immoral individual. It is a shame that he occupied the oval office. How he debased the office is even more shameful. He lied to the public, to his daughter, to the press, and probably to some of his aides. Worst of all, he perjured himself in court proceedings as the judge found. His tactics are despicable: he does whatever he wants and, if caught, looks around for someone else to feed to the wolves.

If that isn't moral bankruptcy, I don't know what is.

5p1der; This may be news to you. A class room is not a democracy it is a place of learning and children do not have the right to spout any political propaganda they learn at home. And you and other parents like you are education's biggest nightmare. Believing that your children have the right to do other than what the teacher wants them to do in that classroom. And ,I believe, that alone is the reason so many good teachers are leaving the school systems across the country.
And you are so right Mtnman.

September 17th is Constitution Day.

This year, by Federal Law, all schools receiving federal funds were required to teach about the Constitution on this day. Or, because it fell on a Saturday, to teach about it on the Friday preceding it or the Monday following it. So, the Constitution was taught on these days.

Lesson plans were provided for those who needed them.

It was taught in beautician schools, automotive repair schools, tech schools, elementary and high schools, community colleges, four year colleges...

DemoDayle, your concept of getting energy from recycled cans is utterly laughable. A centrifuge? I think not.

This blog topic is supposed to be about energy. I will be bashed by certain ones here, but unless the federal government sincerely gets behind the search for alternative energy sources, all we will do is make the oil companies richer. And this administration is clearly guilty of doing nothing but making sure the oil companies get richer.

Here is President Bush's ringing endorsement of what we should do:
""We can all pitch in by using—uh, by being better conservers of energy". Scott McClellan said that was Bush's policy since "day one". But Ari Fleisher stated on May 7, 2001, when asked if we should "correct our lifestyles" to conserve energy said "The answer to that would be a big NO. The President believes that is the American way of life"

Spider, keep the pressure on. There is absolutely no justification for the type of classroom tyranny espoused by Perrymckenzie. Who is she to be deciding what students hear or do not hear?

As Ronald Reagan said, "You cannot conserve your way out of an energy crisis." He also stated that the Department of Energy has not pumped one barrel of oil or created one kilowatt of electricity. The government is an impediment to energy production, not the other way around.

Abolish the Department of Energy, rescind the regulations, and cut excise taxes. As JREwing said above, the free market will work and there will be plenty of energy to go around.

Let me be clear about one thing. I have no problem with private development of other energy forms, ie. hydro, oil, solar, nuclear, etc. If there is a market for it, fine. The government should not stand in the way.

But the government should not subsidize ANY form of energy or MANDATE its use. Some states now mandate use of certain products like corn in gasoline or other fuel. These mandates are utterly and completely wrong. Let the market decide.

People should consider that there may a reason more powerful than the claims of global warming for the plague of hurricances, fires and other disasters on this country and the world. The decline of morality and decency, the condoning of promiscuity and homosexuality, along with the impact of pop culture on our young people all could justify a warning being delivered to mankind.

Or maybe God just hates red states.

<<5p1der; This may be news to you. A class room is not a democracy it is a place of learning and children do not have the right to spout any political propaganda they learn at home. And you and other parents like you are education's biggest nightmare.>>Posted by: cogito on Sep 29, 05 | 11:19 am

LOL--if you think that a political discussion is not necessary in Civics, Social Studies, or History classes then you were deprived of your full learning potential. Which in a republic-crat system, wouldn't surprise me one bit. If you believe that a teacher should be able to hold hostage students so that the teacher can spout propaganda--which is illegall for publicly owned institutions--then you are education's worst nightmare. The soviet union come to mind when you think of education, does it--"here is the political thinking you are allowed"? Yeah, the soviets knew to start early, so did the nazis...i guess you republi-crats have learned from the best.

LMAO

Yes, GrimReaper, we should all take a moment and remember Lot's wife!

<<The decline of morality and decency, the condoning of promiscuity and homosexuality, along with the impact of pop culture on our young people all could justify a warning being delivered to mankind.>>Posted by: GrimReaper on Sep 29, 05 | 12:07 pm

Tell us who prevented you from moving to Saudi Arabia?

Remember--for a country that was founded on Christian principles, the Founding Fathers sure went far out of their way to avoid establishing a Christian state...because zealots should never be allowed to rule anyone but themselves--and that is only out sympathy.

ps>Cogito: a teacher does not have the right, or authority, to undermine a parent's right to teach and guide their children.

<<But the government should not subsidize ANY form of energy or MANDATE its use. Some states now mandate use of certain products like corn in gasoline or other fuel. These mandates are utterly and completely wrong. Let the market decide.>>Posted by: montego on Sep 29, 05 | 11:49 am

The prophet Montego has spoken, all hail montego!

This idea should not be limited to energy production either...

<<The decline of morality and decency, the condoning of promiscuity and homosexuality, along with the impact of pop culture on our young people all could justify a warning being delivered to mankind.>>Posted by: GrimReaper on Sep 29, 05 | 12:07 pm


Is your real name Osama Bin Laden?

No, I think it's Jerry Falwell.

No, cogito, Perrymckenzie and ideologues like her are education's biggest nightmare.

Oh come on, GrimReaper. The world is not operated by mysterious spirits and bad weather is not inflicted on mankind as punishment. Sheesh! Take your medication.

hey, DrD!

How is the McLaren? If possible, I'd love a first hand account of what it's like to drive one of those. Have you ever had any training in race car driving?

<<No, I think it's Jerry Falwell.>>Posted by: swimmom1dc on Sep 29, 05 | 12:47 pm

Perhaps--it is very hard to determine one zealot's religion from another without more information!

5p1der, There are three McLaren M6GT's in existence. I have one. The McLaren M6 was Bruce McLaren's first really successful CanAm car. The Canadian American Callenge was a "Formula Libre" (free form, run whacha brung) sportscar racing series in the sixties and seventies. Aside from the basic rules that define a sports car, one was free to design, build and race whatever kind of sports car one wished. So, some europeans and many americans came up with special cars to race during the "off season" of Formula One. The McLaren M6 succeeded the Lola T-70 as the dominant car in the CanAm challenge. When the McLaren M8 succeeded the M6 as the dominant car, Bruce built a pair of M6GT's for himself and his codriver, Denny Hulm, to use as fun road cars. I have one of those. The response from the public was such that plans were underway to procuce M6GT's as a product line. Unfortunately, Bruce McLaren was killed in a testing accident before the M6GT could be put into production and his successors did not want to pursue the project.

My M6GT weighs about 2400 lbs. with a full load of fuel. It has been updated by me and now is powered by a 556 cu.in. (9 liter) Cheverolet big block that is turbocharged and intercooled and produces 1,250 bhp. @ 6800 rpm. and enough torque to reverse the rotation of the earth. It does 0 to 60 in 1.7 seconds and the quareter mile in 6.8 seconds at 202 mph. Driving it at full speed is a bit like flying a jet fighter. Fortunately, it is relatively light and the engine develops enough power to move the car around nicely just off idle. It has air conditioning and all the usual amentites, so I can use it as daily transportation, as long as I have secure places to park it. In order to reduce its visual signature, it is painted black. It doesn't seem to attract too much attention these days. It was built in 1968.

Yes, 5p1der, I do have experience in racing. I raced successfully in europe a long time ago in another century. The McLaren is sort of a two-wheeled motorcycle that I bomb around in every once in awhile. We have some great mountain roads around the ranch out here. Most times, I drive a little GEO or an Audi.

On energy as in other areas, left wing environmentalists are among the biggest problems in the USA.

Who's the largest mass murder in world history? It's not Stalin (43 million), Mao (30 million), Hitler (25 million) or Pol Pot (8 million). This person can be said to be responsible for killing more people with the stroke of his pen then all of the above combined. This guy plus his accomplices in the EPA have killed over 100 million people from 1972 up to today. And 3 million more will die each year forward.

Who might you say this man is? An Environmentalist. None other than Wm. J. Ruckelshaus, head of the EPA in the Nixon Administration. He believed claims in a book called Silent Spring, which falsely accused DDT of killing all the birds. After exhaustive
EPA hearings before a judge concluded that DDT did not harm nature, Ruckelshaus overruled the Judge and with the stroke of a pen banned DDT in the US. The UN jumped on that and coerced nations around the world
to follow suit.

The ban on DDT has allowed diseases such as malaria, typhus, and typhoid to flourish in poor third world countries killing one child every 15 seconds!

Arsenal, you are exaggerating just a bit, sir. While a great deal of what you say may well be true, there is a reason the "third world" exists and it isn't the unavailability of DDT. The reasons are stupidity and foolishness. When one sees how "societies" in the third world are organized, one can clearly see the irrationality and criminality that characterizes each of them. Just look at how that madman, Robert Mugabe, is slaughtering his own people in Zimbabwe! That has nothing to do with DDT and erything to do with the madness, savagry and idiocy that is so common all over Africa. This has everything to do with the Africans responsible and little to do with us.

arsenal - your 2:01PM EDT was the most complete bunch of nonsense I've ever seen on this blog. DDT is a proven cumulative toxic and was rightly banned from production. Plenty of other pesticides have been formulated to take it's place.

Posted by: arsenal on Sep 29, 05 | 2:01 pm

Hmmm...makes sense--Nixon being the criminal responsible for single handedly raising the crime rate 300%. But what is a president to do with 50K troops coming back home with no jobs to offer them...well of course one creates a public policy of treason by making it illegal to practice our 9th Amendment rights! Don'tcha just love circumventing the amendment process?

As for William Ruckelshaus being an "environmentalist", look closely at his record and what Boards of Directors he was involved with - http://www.epa.gov/history/admin/agency/ruckelshaus.htm . One last thing to boot - Ruckelshaus was a Republican and an attorney.

DrD, when I get the chance I intend to learn to drive a race car. We have Gateway Int. raceway just accross the river in Il. 5 laps all out is all I ask...

But to drive one of the cars responsible for the passion of driving...that is absolutely kewl.

But 1.7 sec. to 60 sounds a bit quick even for the new McLarens.

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/mclaren.htm

Of course, there are other many other causes of death in the third world as DrDarryl correctly states. They are undeniably idiotic. Well, mtnman, I have read enough of the commentary on this blog to expect you to lash out at me since you claim to be an expert at everything. Ever hear the phrase, "jack of all trades, master of none"?

but Montego I liked the aluminum can idea - it would fly so well in Wisconsin!

This time I agree swimmom:
"... unless the federal government sincerely gets behind the search for alternative energy sources, all we will do is make the oil companies richer."

Montego if we abolish the Department of Energy who will be behind the search? Are there enough free market entities out there to carry this out on a large enough scale basis?

Quoting Ari Fleisher from 2001 is really behind the times because the President has since changed his mind. In fact I would say that any quotes by anyone prior to Hurricane Katrina can be discarded.

No swimmom God doesn't hate red states, or even blue ones. And 5p1der even in natural law there are negatives to balances positives, actions and equal reactions. This level of storm has been prophesied by scientists and theologians alike. Just choose your own prophet.

to the unenlightened - the statement on judgement and morality could also be from David Wilkerson, Billy Graham, or Pope John Paul not to mention Pope Benedict. Funny how the spectrum has closed the circle.

I’m with the mtnman on this one. The judge may have made that ruling, but that doesn’t change the science behind cumulative toxins, which DDT is. Certainly, trying to place Ruckelshaus in any category near Hitler or Stalin is far from accurate, and um... well dumb.

Here’s the deal with global warming, greenhouse gasses, and alternative energy.

Global warming is about as much of a scientific fact as evolution. It is absolutely happening. The real question is; how much of global warming is being caused/exacerbated by mankind?

We certainly are producing green house gasses, which must have some effect on the earth. There have certainly been multiple heating and cooling cycles in the history of the earth, and we have been in an interglacial period for a significant period of time. The icecaps have been milting since we first started looking at them, unfortunately that is not enough time to draw any real conclusions as to how much is our responsibility. The thing is, we just don’t know. Anyway claiming to know either way is full of ‘you-know-what.’

Now, discretion being the better part of valor, it would be a damn shame to do nothing simply because we don’t know. The results of being wrong and doing nothing is WAY worse then the results of being wrong and doing something. On the other hand, there isn’t enough evidence to support making extreme changes to our lifestyles causing major disruption to our economy, especially when there is little chance that all the other countries of the world will do the same. So, advocating either extreme is simply imprudent.

However, spending significant money on alternative energy sources is wise. It’s a no loose situation. Building alternative energy sources will surly reduce our dependence on oil, which at worst will extend the current oil supplies and at best save the planet. Spending the money will put the U.S. at the head of the technology curve, again, thus producing a new export, creating jobs, stimulating the economy... etc...etc. Why are there so many republicans against this idea?... (and no cogito... it’s not because they are money grubbing ______s.)

aesenal - call me what you like, but you are incorrect about DDT. Maybe you should read "Silent Spring" (written by a biologist) as well as the many documented cases showing that once DDT is in the environment, it remains in plant and animal tissues and is a cumulative poison.

It's funny how people like to throw labels about to hide their own ignorance.

"This has everything to do with the Africans responsible and little to do with us. " SO WRONG DARRYL. This has everything to do with us because we have moral responsibility to the world and we have the United Nations encamped in New York.

The United Nations refugee camp near Accra, Ghana is suffering thru a Typhoid Fever epidemic. Guess what - no vaccine is available for anyone over the age of five, not for any amount of money! NO VACCINES ARE AVAILABLE. The doctors can't get them!

So while we are sitting here typing on our computers - or the boss's computers - discussing which expensive new energy alternative we want to try next people are dying and that could be because we don't feel responsible for what is happening in Africa.

But we might want to rethink this idea because Avian influenza is killing people now in the Orient and a variation has shown up in dogs in this country this fall. It is also related to equine influenza.

What happens in the rest of the world can come here to bite us - literally.

Isolationism has never been possible and it is so not possible now!!!

whether you agree with arsenal on DDT or not the mosquito is the second most dangerous 'animal' on the earth, second only to mankind.

Arsenal, what does being a jack of all trades and master of none, have to do with anything. What is it that you are claiming to be a master of. And, if you have mastered anything doesn’t that generally mean you’ve ignored others. Certainly that ability to think globally is contingent upon keeping your mind and you eyes open and available to learn. . . keep it in perspective man.

<<Montego if we abolish the Department of Energy who will be behind the search? Are there enough free market entities out there to carry this out on a large enough scale basis?>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 2:54 pm

Private concerns should be the only ones searching...There would be far more private companies doing so without the subsidies going to oil companies.

<<And 5p1der even in natural law there are negatives to balances positives, actions and equal reactions. This level of storm has been prophesied by scientists and theologians alike. Just choose your own prophet.>>

WHAT are you talking about? Frankly, I don't follow a prophet or profit. I follow the Mesiah. He teaches compassion, tolerance and most of all FORGIVENESS--how can you be forgiven if you can't forgive, be tolerated if you can't tolerate, or recieve compassion if you have none? God said that judgement is His and His alone--not you or any other person on this planet. To target and judge anyone based on their morality being different from yours is clearly NOT in Christ's teachings.

Does Christ's compassion for Mary Magdalen ring a bell for any of you Bible thumpers bleating on about the morality around you?

Very comforting to know so many are without sin and able to cast so many stones!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1580613,00.html

This is an article about global warming..

Note that it is not from the NY Times or the Wash Post....or from NBC for that matter.

Take it for what it is worth...

5p1der I didn't target any individuals, I pointed out that there is doom and gloom coming whether you believe the Bible or you believe the Scientific community. Doesn't matter which one because the result is the same. We are held accountable either by a deity or by the earth itself.

Feelgood Christianity is as hollow as the hellfire n' damnation variety. There are both elements. If Revelation is disturbing in its allegories check out Matt 24.

I am certainly no big fan of mosquitos, WldFlwr. The relative lack of them is a major reason I reside in the Rocky Mountains.

Let's see - almost $200 billion spent on the Iraq invasion so far. Even 1/10th of that could have gone a long ways towards providing most of the vaccinations required to prevent the spread of the contollable diseases and provide nutrition to many of the starving in the world, too.

The only thing I find disturbing about Revelations is that I know myself to be a sinner.

oh thankyou BIGDOG!

well a true point mtman so let's bring the troops home and turn over Iraq to Al Zarquawi to launch his new kingdom for Al Quaida. Then we can spend $400Billion trying to protect ourselves.

<<5p1der I didn't target any individuals, I pointed out that there is doom and gloom coming whether you believe the Bible or you believe the Scientific community. Doesn't matter which one because the result is the same. We are held accountable either by a deity or by the earth itself.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 3:26 pm

My apologies, I should have known using "you" and its variations would make you (WldFlwr) think that you were the intended invidividual. The usage was intended to be more general.

<<...so let's bring the troops home and turn over Iraq to Al Zarquawi to launch his new kingdom for Al Quaida. Then we can spend $400Billion trying to protect ourselves.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 3:33 pm

It is much less costly to keep troops home than to send them abroad.

bigdog - very good article but what are we supposed to do about it? Is there anything we can do about it?

I have to say Perry McKenzie is right about public transit - her only error was that it just isn't available most places in this country speaking geographically. But we certainly could eliminate those little hybrid puddle-jumping vehicles in New York and make those people be responsible and take buses! The cities have reliable transportation and it should be used.

thankyou 5p1der, 'you' second person impersonal collective gotcha

Wild, I don't know what can be done about it. I remember reading somewhere in this thread that global warming was the creation of the "leftists". I thought this would put a different slant on that idea.

Well, big dog, seeing how today's NY Times gave the shrinking Polar ice cap front page coverage, it will just confirm for many folks on this blog that the melting is clearly a leftist event.

I hate to take away your glimmer of hope.

well the fact there is warming has nothing whatsoever to do with politics. The only question is whether this is something we caused and therefor may hope to curtail, or whether this is a natural cycle of the planet. And nobody knows so the political posturing is pointless.

Alternative energy anyone?

The more immediate need for alternative energy sources is the winter barreling toward us. It was 40º this morning. That's a tad nippier than last week. For those counting on affordable heating oil or propane this is going to be a winter of crisis.

If people have to choose between heat and paying bills they will heat their homes. Already the credit card industry is facing record defaults - of course part of this is their own fault for raising rates to 29.99% which guarantees payments will stop and using universal default which can be punative to an account never in arrears or over-limit.

There is going to be an economic disaster and if the credit industry isn't able to float there are going to be bigger problems. The whole economy could go down like dominos.

And while the south has too much water the west is burning again.

We are looking at taking different steps this fall to cut the heating bills. It may end up being in the short run just every household for itself.

tkearns I think we are working on the "hot air" philosophy again

Yes, again i say to you. In the 70's the DOE and its predacessors had a big program going on alternative fuels. It made a lot of progress and these projects created the first generation prototypes of several alternative engery processes. Please go to the DOE site i posted a couple of days ago here and look at it. See if that can' get you interested in what the subject is here. I have asked a lot of questions and posted some ideas and i have not gotten an answer on my posts. I take that back i had a couple of interesting and one spelling correction. I do not have time to read 20 posts to find one on energy. Take that stuff to another thread and let see if we can learn something on this one.

Much of the energy crisis would be averred if those with urban planning crednetials were allowed to do their jobs without the political inference of those on the right.Planned communities would be sustainable and efficienct. The rich right wing sububanites could kiss your SUV trucks and limos and 2 acre lots goodby.Bush rides around in a gas guzzling limo too which figures he would want the taxpayers to dump more money in the pockets of him and his oil bubbies.I say all of us stop using oil and oil related products today as much as possilbe. If I had a car it would be electric one or maybe hybroid not one of those ozone destroying monsters that the white conservatives drive.We have buses can run on propane or vegatable fuels now which is wonderful to see. Wldflwr you have a great idea about public transportion.I say in any city where theres a bus/subway system there should not be any cars allowed in the city limit then people would use to public systemand no carbon dioxide pollution.The real reason why no research gets done on the altervatives is that Bush/halburton have sqaushed the grant monies or threatened the researchers to stop because it might hurt their oil interest in the pocket books. One internet site contains a long story of the visit of Halburton henchmento a solar researcher in California whereby his nose and arm were broken in the process.This is threats and intimidation which is typical of the Republican Party and how they get their way just like theior intimidation of black voters in 2004 and their denial of the right to vote in florida in 2000 by Bushs' brother.

Perry: Go ayay.

I know away is spelt wrong. But that way perry will read it and understand it.

Perry the President of the United States - EVERY President of the United States rides around in a big gas-guzzling armored limo. Had John F. Kennedy been thus protected he could not have been killed in the motorcade.

You may have just insulted a good share of your leftist friends - the ones with the SUVs and the 2 acre lots. They are leftwing but NOT THAT LEFTWING. Their loyalties and politics stop at their own two and three car garages. And don't forget their campers and their motorboats, and their 4wheelers and ATVs. And these are the people who take vacations - in their vehicles.

ntman... no the conversation in class was more on how liberal ideas can get people killed... but you were close.

Red in blue county, I think you had a list once of how liberal ideas get us killed or something along those lines. Was that you?

Yeah... I thinking it would have made a great handout heh,heh

I 'was' thinking... oops I just did a Perry!!!!

Perry, do you really believe these crazy things about thugs going around beating up researchers? What kind of world do you live in?

I suspect a world with a very strong teacher's union...

Red, thugs and unions? Say it ain't so.....

Yeah sort like Monica and Bill...

Or like Rev (?) Jesse Jackson and extortion.......

like Sen. Bryd and the KKK...

or Sen. Joe Biden (D-Maryland) and The Hair Club......

Like the beast 666 (Hillary)and Vince Foster...

Red there is no way the AFT or the NEA would endorse this. And union teachers can be are are fired.

<<Alternative energy anyone?>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 29, 05 | 4:53 pm

Two to go, please.

come come boys back to the topic. Any ideas????

Wldflower what are you refering to 'this'?

Perry, cars create carbon monoxide, not carbon dioxide. You might want to check out a science book from the library.

Red, how about Barbara Boxer and liberal tripe......

<<I know away is spelt wrong. But that way perry will read it and understand it.>>Posted by: tkearns on Sep 29, 05 | 5:14 pm


Darn it! How can I flame a person who comments on their own mispelling?

Wild, sorry I know better but I can't help myself.

...a little closer to home we also have Paul and company and liberal tripe...

Red, do you still have that list that Sgt asked you about? I remember it, too. Funny stuff.

One last one for you, Red, The Beast and the Rose Law Firm billing records.

Montego..I bet our resident EAE "expert at everything" archivist knows where it is... lol

I'll have an idea when it was posted... give me some time

How about Carter and the malaise...

How about Dan Rather and phony news documents......

How about Kerry and Gore... that's scary

<<no the conversation in class was more on how liberal ideas can get people killed... but you were close.>>Posted by: Red in blue County on Sep 29, 05 | 5:24 pm


Considering our Constitution is 100% liberal, seems to me that would be a correct statement: 500K dead in the Civil War...

"Wldflower what are you refering to 'this'?"

"this level of incompetance" but I do not believe this individual is a professional anything, anywhere for anyone. Ever go into a chatroom? It is easy to sort out the minors from the miners by the rhetoric the minors cannot discuss to any degree. They pick up something they heard or read and run with it. There is no possibility this person is a graduate from a college the name of which he/she cannot spell, nor is there any possibility whatsoever this person has an IQ substantially over 130. If there is any proficiency at all it is not in language arts, geography, any natural science, political science, or history.
Maybe math but we have not seen any challenges in that subject here.

Despite my disdain for AFT and NEA for their humanist manifestos - which classroom teachers do not really get involved in, they just want representation in their employment - they have some standards. Teachers here are fired when they don't perform adequately, if they overstep the bounds of propriety in the classroom, and one for just being plain mean to the little kids. We have a strong union representation in our district but they would not allow such behavior as we read of here.

well while bashing the media let's not forget NBC News and the Gulf War fiasco when they scripted and filmed in their New York studios a child relating her "horrific Kuwait experiences". TV Guide discovered that one.

Everyone is writing to the paycheck, we can't trust news reports. It takes 3 days to get the dust and feathers down so we can figure out what really happened, during which death counts soar or crash and the names of participants change, people are declared dead then resurrected. And all sides are guilty.
Everyone wants that scoop.

and now if you will excuse me, I am going to go watch the news.

just got back from mowing the lawn and it occurred to me that the riding lawn mower thing where the jones' are trying to beat their neighbors, the Smiths with the coolest, biggest riding mower with the latest cup holder and a/c is a pretty good place to start conserving. Aside from being gullible enough to buy a lawn mower for $8k-15K to mow a half acre and can't even get groceries in it--bet they love filling that as much as the ole vehicle--perhaps we should be buying solar powered electric mowers?

I use a push mower cuz I like to, excercise or more time outside, I don't know for certain. But then a solar powered mower would be ok. This is premo!

http://international.husqvarna.com/node1533.asp

Red in blue County,

Your comment"

"I 'was' thinking..."

You were what?

Certainly not you.

That would be out of character.

LOL paul. Red in blue County meant to say that he was plagarizing.

Hate to go off topic, but here I go.

WldFlwr - you constantly tell us all on this blog how much the military is behind Bush all the way. Well, I've got news for you. I found this really interesting conversation at Military.com that I think is well worth a long hard look at:

http://forums.military.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/409192893/m/9050032420001

Sounds like there are some serious murmurs there...

don't be ridiculous 5p1der, get a sheep, put it in a small pen [4 hog panels would be fine] and move it day to day. You get the grass mowed and fertilized at the same time. If you get the right sheep you can shear it in the spring for wool.

In Wiesbaden W GY there was a contract request for mowing the air base and the woman who won it had a flock of sheep. Of course they had to keep them off the runways.

one hint though if you live in town you better have a name for that sheep and make certain it comes when you call it so it's a pet and not livestock

mtman you're kidding right? No, you wouldn't be kidding you really think that the comments of a small handful of people on a website constitute the attitude of the military? You can't be that gullible and naive! or can you?

First of all you can discount anyone still fighting the Civil War in 2005 so there goes your most vehement writer.

Most of the criticism on the page was about policy not the President himself. And thinking people know how to separate them.

But I will give you credit for finding a website not run by the NY Times.

And of course, you WldFlwr are the official voice of the military, right? How did you come to have that awesome responsibility? Re-read your own posts, too many in all different topics, and realize you type as if you are the resident military expert.

Wldflr; You don't have a clue about hybred cars.
I own a 2004 Toyota Prius . A 4 door that is as large as any compact car on the road. I can cruse at 70 mph while getting 50 -60 mpg.
There are airbags all around. It may not do well in an accident wit one of those gas guzzleing tanks you mentioned ,most cars wouldn't.
5p1der; yes it is necessary in the classes you mentioned; That is what they are ment for.
And they are controled by the teacher not the students and you know dam well what I was talking about. The teacher adhears to the school curriculum or should.
You are right about the "undermine a parents right to tell their children" even when most parents are not educated enough to teach,and perpetuate ignorance.

Posted by: mtnman on Sep 29, 05 | 7:58 pm

See? I'm not the only one callin 'em republi-crat. a self professed hard core republican does too!

<<don't be ridiculous 5p1der, get a sheep, put it in a small pen [4 hog panels would be fine] and move it day to day. You get the grass mowed and fertilized at the same time. If you get the right sheep you can shear it in the spring for wool.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 29, 05 | 8:13 pm

my community has rules about farm animals within city limits...

<<And they are controled by the teacher not the students and you know dam well what I was talking about. The teacher adhears to the school curriculum or should.
You are right about the "undermine a parents right to tell their children" even when most parents are not educated enough to teach,and perpetuate ignorance.>>Posted by: cogito on Sep 29, 05 | 10:45 pm

moderated is how ours does it. but teaching math is one thing, teaching beliefs is solely the domain of the parent. a teacher who undermines that should be terminated immediately.

cogito whatever happened to BUY AMERICAN?

cza you really do not want to know but I can assure you this blog is just chock full of decorated veterans so you can depend on them for your information if you prefer.

I happen to be a member of the website mtman posted the link for.

I am sorry you know so little about so very few things.

mtn man: On your military site. Dont know how many members but a scan of the actives show that the high was 8800+ posts a member for 2 years, another 4400+ posts member for a year +. I hope they aren't on active duty I never has that much time when i was on active duty. Looks like they are about in the same catagory that i might place Perry. No i take that back no one can be as bad as perry. I also find it interesting that just like the masked teroists the identies are close held. It you are going to put out trash and attacks at least identify your self. Upfront!!!!!

Wild is not the only one who knows a lot about the military. I do also and i have not found wild to be wrong in any of her military posts. If so i will converse with her on that. I do not defent the military here and do not try and educate those that would not listen anyway on the military.

forgive me for having Perry's sentense structure. I had her grandmother for an english teacher.

Many of us are ex- (I don't know if any are current) military; some retired--I think I remember BobbyGee saying he was retired after 30 years. many have relatives who are/were: my dad retired navy after 25. A step brother, who in 2000 was the only enlisted sailor offered a commission and currently a Lt. (of course, he made chief in 8 years...talk about fast track...). I did my service and gratefully left. Many of us know the military inside out--and those who don't know people who do.

It is with that that I have to disagree that all (or even relatively) are behind our President. There are many democrats who serve and I doubt they leave their politics behind...

"It may not do well in an accident wit one of those gas guzzleing tanks you mentioned ,most cars wouldn't."

thankyou cogito, that really was my only point. cza was just looking for a squabble.

5pider there is no such thing as ALL of any group agreeing on anything but
you are required to leave your politics behind while on active duty. Voting is of course encouraged, overt campaigning is not allowed, neither is attending political rallies of any sort in uniform. There are probably local exceptions but that is the general rule. The COMMANDER is the PRESIDENT and even if there is little or even no respect for the individual there is respect for the OFFICE.Those who cannot deal with it don't make a career of the military.

That, wldflwr, was not my understanding of the point in question that got that ball rolling:

"...you really think that the comments of a small handful of people on a website constitute the attitude of the military?"

Please tell me where in the UCMJ it even elludes "you are required to leave your politics behind while on active duty."

We spoke politics all the time in my shop, and considering I was wet behind the ears compared to the many PO's in the shop, I hardly believe it was a localized thing. Further consider it was east coast training squadron(you know, more ship-shape than the rest of the squadrons due to making an impression for the newby pilots)--as anyone who has served on both sides of the continent can tell you, the further away from Washington DC, the lower the degree of that stiff upper lip. When I served the popular topic was Clinton's mission to allow homosexuals to serve as well as other politically charged debate.

I did my time and have been surrounded by the military my entire life, so please, don't preach to me about it or about respect. Speaking of which, it is a fallacy to believe that merely being in a position earns respect; people have varying thresholds of what may earn their respect, but just being there doesn't cut it. If you, wldflwr, give your respect so easily, then that is your business. When the position in question has the power to destroy the world 10 times over at the push of a button, that threshold had probably be extremely high, don't you think?

WldFlwr says, regarding cogito's comment that he owns a Toyota Prius, "whatever happened to BUY AMERICAN?"

Fact: even if your computer may have an American brand name, most if not all of its components are manufactured overseas.

Fact: even if you drive a Silverado as you claim, WldFlwr, a substantial amount of its components are manufactured overseas. (I know as I have a 2500HD 4x4 Silverado with an Izuzu Duramax engine in it, and many of its parts are "hecho en Mexico" or in Canada).

Fact: Toyota and Honda are both far more advanced in their hybrid automobile technology than are the Big 3 American manufacturers. Both Toyota and Honda now manufacture a great deal of their vehicles in the USA. Just as GM, Ford, and Chrysler have manufacturing plants scattered throughout the world, so does Toyota and Honda.

Fact: many of the alternative energy technologies, including solar panels, are developed here in the USA but end up being manufactured overseas and then resold here. I think it may have something to do with that free market thing montego and DrDarryl like to talk about on this blog.

Maybe you need to start looking at the labels on the things that you buy. Many American companies, such as Wal-Mart, sell items that are primarily manufactured overseas, often in China.

As for your comment about my sources, WldFlwr, I suggest you flip back through my posts here; I link to many other sources other than the NY Times. Your comment is far from as clever as you seem to think it is.

Cogito, I thought you were a loyal Ford man. I had little respect for that. Not much just a little. But a damn foreign Toyota???? That's treason for an auto worker isn't it??

Sen Biden is from Delaware, not Maryland.

I guess if the New York Times prints it, it is leftist. Funny, I saw an article on Judge Roberts today.

Speaking of conserving energy by using public transportation, is it London that requires some type of payment for the privilege of driving a vehicle in town on the weekends (or is it daily?) Think that could work in some of our metropolitan cities?

If we kept cars off the roads by requiring folks to use public transportation, we could benefit in many ways. The air would be cleaner, less gas would be used, and road surfaces would last longer.

Just imagine the savings....

big dog - it takes a very narrow mind to consider the NY Times to be a "leftist" paper. Newly released from jail NY Times reporter Judith Miller wrote several articles in the lead-up to the Iraqi invasion that supported the now entirely discredited Bush Administration claim regarding Saddam Hussein's intent to purchase "yellow-cake" uranium from Niger. In essence, the NY Times was a major drummer in the march toward war in Iraq, certainly not a "leftist" position. Worldwide, the NY Times is considered the "flagship" paper of the USA, and intellectuals across the globe respect the Times wide range of clear news reporting. To all those who constantly bash the NY Times, I suggest actually buying the Sunday edition and sitting down and reading it instead of just parroting a bunch of slander and opinion that have nothing to do with the actual writing in the newspaper but everything to do with a right-wing political agenda which seeks to discredit any source that may be critical of the current Administration.

Mtnman,
I believe that big dog was being sarcastic. He was trying to point out that a "leftist" paper wouldn't have an article about Judge Roberts. I think it's Wild who believes the NY Times is leftist.

Well, big dog, seeing how today's NY Times gave the shrinking Polar ice cap front page coverage, it will just confirm for many folks on this blog that the melting is clearly a leftist event.

I hate to take away your glimmer of hope.



Posted by: paul on Sep 29, 05 | 4:08 pm

Thanks Mtman, swim, I read the New York Times almost daily. I also read the Washington Times as well as the Washington Post. I suscribe to several magazines, Time, Newsweek, etc.,.

My point is that just because a paper prints something I disagree with does not in itself, make it wrong...or "leftist" or "rightist". It appears that global warming is a fact of life and the event is going to result in more fossil fuel usage. More electricity to cool our homes in the summer and more fuel to heat our homes in the winter.

We really need to seek alternative energy sources despite what many of the bloggers say here.

5p1der: re: your tridide on military.
some items for you to ponder. 1. My sons were making the navy a life in the navy in the early ninetys. They left in 94 or 95 with 6 and 10 years because they said that they did niot like the Clinton navy.
2. The ucmj covers crimes. The congress passed a law that says approximately what wild said. Break that law and the UCMJ gets you.
3. But not necessarily, Senator Kerry broke a law by meeting with our enemy while on active duty without authorization. This may be why his honorable discharge took 20 years to show up.
4. To get a secret clearance before 93 you had to sigh that you had never used illigal drugs. The administration changed that to not used in the past 5 years. This point was used to deny many clearances in the past but many white house employees could not get a clearance so the form was changed.
5. When respect breaks down, the military is in trouble. Hove you heard about the fragings in VN? One occured in Kuwait. Maybe more, only one was reported.
6. Because one makes a statement on this blog does not mean that that person is preaching to anybody. Most people know that you take thing personnally because that is your nature. There is no need to lash out at somewone that has a different position than you. Cool it.

Montego: I found the list posted on how liberal ideas can kill... I thought you would like it to see it so here you go. It appears somewhat dated, it was from a discussion with irreligious-left Paul in April.

Now watch the personal attacks from nuts from the left.

1 Slick Willie and his handling of Osama Bin Laden... Turning down a free offer to hang the bastard was a liberal idea. And this 'idea' literally killed at least 3,000 Americans.

2 "Why do they hate us so?" or "If we would just listen to their grievances, everything would be all right." (apply at will...)

3 "The military should be used to advance 'social justice'."

4 "spitballs"

5 "profiling is bad".... yeah right. Not profiling can get you killed, whether you are in an airport or an American city.

6 Abortion (roughly 40 million killed) Abortion on demand...especially by minors

7 You now can be starved to death without a living will! Seems quality of life is more precious than life period.

8 There's not enough money in Social Security or Medicare to go around! For the good of the many, the few must sacrifice! You should be honored to die so that others can have a larger slice of the entitlement pie! You shouldn't be draining health care resources if you're just a smiling, laughing vegetable. We must step forward for the good of the many and sacrifice you.

8 We should accede to the wishes of the UN, which to socialist the UN is supreme in it's wisdom.

9 Thanks to years of liberals meddling, the justice system is broken. The prisons are overcrowded and disproportionately filled with minorities, and liberals also fail at rehabilitation. So when we let the bastards go because we have to make room for new prisoners, they are not ready to join the rest of the peaceful citizens.

10 The political correctness and the liberal culture around it that contributed to the spread of aids...

11 Ironically, most environmental legislation can be shown to cause harm by reducing the wealth and productivity of those who would create the goods that improve and extend our lives.

12 Similarly, FDA and similar agencies that limit use of drugs may appear to save some lives from bad drugs getting to market too early, but they also kill by delaying good drugs from getting to market as soon as they could have where they can save lives.

tkearns: What tirade? I don't bash military--read any of almost 600 postings i have put here and find one that does. And, as I am from Missouri, you are gonna have Show Me this:

The congress passed a law that says approximately what wild said.


BTW, The UCMJ also defines crimes:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm#SUBCHAPTER%20X.%20PUNITIVE%20ARTICLES

And it aint in there. So, if you doubt that I have an inkling of knowledge on the subjects I elect to speak on, you may want to double check to make sure what you are saying is correct. Your sons don't give you the experience I or they have.

Red, too true, just too true
LMAO

swimmom1dc and big dog - I understood what big dog was getting at, and I was directing my comments to the several bloggers here who insist on identifying the NY Times as well as TIME, Washington Post, and many other well reputed newspapers and magazines who they identify as "leftist". These same people rarely cite any sources themselves but are quick to dispell the veracity of others who do.

NY Times as well as TIME, Washington Post are as left as Fox is right eh?...

I guess it matters mostly what shade of color your glassses are.

FOX is a television news outlet, unpoor. There is a big difference between televised and written media.

For the military "experts" here, todays AP has this article as one of it's lead stories. Entitled "Army Faces Worst Recruiting Slump in Years", you can read the entire story here:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ARMY_RECRUITING_SLUMP?SITE=KMOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Look back at our nation's history - the last time this type of slump happened, we had something called the draft to make up the difference.

Thanks, Red, for the list. They say humor must have an element of truth to be truly funny.

Another liberal double standard: libertarians/conservatives/Republicans are chastised for not citing sources. Certain liberals are not. When was the last time cognito or perry were called on the carpet for not citing sources? Hmmmm?

This is a blog not a term paper where a bibliography is required. Personally, I do this when I have a little spare time during the day. I do not have the time or inclination to read links or sources from others, nor to attach any of my own. I am sure that other bloggers who actually work during the day are in the same position. This is an OPINION blog not a college exam.

BTW, leftist media is leftist media, regardless of whether it is TV, radio, print, or anything else.

So according to you written media is unbiased? You are just silly.

montego you may have noticed that those who feel the desperate need to cite sources are devoid of original thought or at least so insecure in their own thoughts they are afraid to put them forth. As you point out, opinion requires no source. We are all entitled to our own ridiculous opinions.

I fail to see what recruiting stats have to do with alternative energy sources.

As I just posted on another thread - blogspot.com is FREE so those who want to endlessly drone on about politics should go there and do so. You can even control the membership and spend the next decade blathering back and forth to each other in total agreement while the world goes on without you. It would be a nice little ego stroke for all of you. And the rest of us would stand a better chance of remaining on topic without the distraction.

"desperate"? "insecure"? Hmmm... and who is the one always chiding all the other bloggers? Maybe you need to find a real job, as it is clear that you have entirely too much time on your hands. I post sources to share material that is of interest, certainly not because I have a dearth of original thoughts or ideas. Some on this blog actually appreciate finding new sources and don't rely on the "same old same old".

and now mtman you are telling other people how to live their lives. Oh my yes there is a God - it's MTMAN

Wild, yup. You got that right. No original thought, no ideas, no solutions, just Bush-bashing and nothing more. Same old liberal tripe.

I am curious about Perry's sources though. On second thought, I don't like science fiction.

<<montego you may have noticed that those who feel the desperate need to cite sources are devoid of original thought or at least so insecure in their own thoughts they are afraid to put them forth. As you point out, opinion requires no source. We are all entitled to our own ridiculous opinions.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 30, 05 | 12:07 pm


So when someone's opinion or knowledge is challenged, it is a sign of a lack of imagination or original thought to cite a source? Amazing. I wonder how the scientific community would feel about that.

I swear Wldflr; You are the most naive person. Try and buy an automobile that is completely American made, it can't be done.
Right on Mtnman.
Chevytrucker you continue to prove just how dumb you are. And when Ford makes a comparable car I'll be first in line.
Call me on the carpet any time you want montego I would like that :).

cogito I don't drive new cars. Never have, don't ever plan to - they are a dead loss economically and not nearly as reliable as the older ones - the ones that were made in the USA long ago by the United Auto Workers. Our older vehicles go right by broken down new cars every day. And come the dead of winter ours will start while the new car people are calling AAA. We drive Fords and GM vehicles. So I guess that makes us dumb too.

How does anyone call anyone on the carpet on a blog?

5p1der your links are always informative, instructive and useful. Other people here don't need to be challenged to cite, they have to back up their ideas to present them which is unnecessary to begin with.

My M6GT was built in 1968 and updated to today's state of the art recently by me. It is about as fast as a current Formula One car in a straight line and pulls about 2.5 g's in a turn. Needless to say, it is not stock and never was, as it did not make it to production. The extrordinary limits of the McLaren make it possible for me to exercise my driving skills safely. 5p1der, if you have not acquired racing skills, you probably have no idea where the actual limits of control are. This is good. Extremely entertaining things happen when those limits are unintentionally exceeded. Unlike when I started out, there are many fine schools at which you can explore the outer limits of vehicle control without an encounter with mortality. The best of these in my experience is The Bob Bounderant School in Arizona. If you can afford the time and money, I do recommend you take a week or so and REALLY learn about high performance driving. Without that knowledge, a ride with me in the McLaren will necessitate a change of underwear.

Wrong McLaren, 5p1der. Mine is an M6GT, not an F1. I'll send you a pic offline, if you like.

Red/Montego... a couple more for the list.

Animal Rights groups that go too far (or want to try and go too far).. preventing necessary testing of drugs and medicines on Animals that are necessary before they are used on humans.

*** Enviromentallist that barred the New Orleans Levee from being upgraded 2 decades ago because they didn't want to disturb some beetle or bug or some other nonsense...now we see what happens.

*** Promotion of Drug use..(No laws against illicit and clearly dangerous drugs) ..which means more drug addicts dying, and also attacking and harming others to try and fund their habits.

*** Promotion of Gun restrictions and banning in some areas for law abiding citizens, so that they are more easily attacked and killed by the Democratic Voter base.. (Criminals)

newsmax.com now this is no surprise...lol

China Names Condom for Bill Clinton


A Chinese company is honoring ex-president Bill Clinton by naming a new line of condoms after him - along with a companion line of condoms that will be named after his ex-girlfriend, Monica Lewinsky.

Reports Britain's Sky News: The Guangzhou Haokian Bio-science company has registered their names as trademarks for the contraceptives.

The condoms will display Chinese spellings: Kelitun and Laiwensiji.

A 12-pack of Clintons is expected to cost $5.00, with Lewinskys selling at a discounted price of just over $3.00.

The manufacturer's general manager, Liu Wenhua, told Sky News that naming his condoms for Clinton was perfectly legal, explaining that "trademarks of two foreign surnames and can't be seen as a violation of rights."

Clinton's affair is REAL OLD news. Get over that too.

<<5p1der your links are always informative, instructive and useful. Other people here don't need to be challenged to cite, they have to back up their ideas to present them which is unnecessary to begin with.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 30, 05 | 1:36 pm

Then I misunderstood, which happens more frequently than I care to admit.

<<Wrong McLaren, 5p1der. Mine is an M6GT, not an F1. I'll send you a pic offline, if you like.>>Posted by: DrDarryl on Sep 30, 05 | 2:37 pm

That would be kind of you.

PS> I haven't forgotten our other discussion either, but I need to finish tieing off some loose ends before getting much further.

<<*** Promotion of Drug use..(No laws against illicit and clearly dangerous drugs) ..which means more drug addicts dying, and also attacking and harming others to try and fund their habits>>Posted by: unpoor on Sep 30, 05 | 3:41 pm

This is the only one of the points to take issue with in regard to the passage referenced.

I suppose seeing drug abuse as the disease it is--as alcohol and nicotine addicts are allowed--is not going to soften your heart. But how about this: Prohibition itself severly inflates every one of the maladies you point out. May I point you in the direction of another prohibition whose effects were identical to drug prohibition: the Vollstead Act, which, oddly enough required an amendment to the Constitution.
How about I link all the Supreme Court cases prior Nixon's treason which also says it is your right to posses and use (I believe heroin was the popular one in most of those).

It is only because this is treated with incarceration instead of medical treatment that this remains so pervasive.

But, perhaps you can thank Nixon for single handedly raising the crime rate 300% when he decided an executive order was necessary to deny American's their 9th Amendment right--if you don't believe it is, read it:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Since you cannot show anywhere in the Constitution where it states that the feds have the authority to tell anyone what they may or may not posses and use, then being a responsible citizen and patriot of our Constitution, you recognize that although you may not like it, the right exists.

unpoor - not only do you have a silly handle but your sense of reality is way off-base too.

Oh, and lets not forget the lost taxes when a mere recreational user is removed from workforce and probably not going to be making up those lost taxes with the reduced wages they earn after incarceration.

That it costs $15Billion dollars to fight the Drug War, and only half that would be necessary for treatment programs. Do you like unneccessary spending?

Not to mention that the prison overcrowding due to housing these folks has led to the ONDCP (and therefor the federal government) facilitating rape, murder and theft by repeat offenders--and THOSE associated costs.

Name one other public policy 'war' in which armed government agents murder American citizens? War on Aids? War on Illiteracy? War on what?

Pehaps you aren't aware that aspirin kills ~8K people per year, all NSAIDs combined kills 16K (that would be aspirin, tylenol, ibuprofen, etc.), marijuana 0 (and happens to be the current primary target of the ONDCP). Taffic accidents cause 40K deaths a year. What a sad use of peace office resources to remove tax payers from the system so that you can pay for them--for no more reason than excersizing their 9th Amendment Right.

Don't believe the death counts? Try out the CDC and NIDA. Then, do a google search on "botched drug raid" and find out how many INOCENT (even under the eyes of our Drug War "laws") American citizens are being killed.

Hmm...how about this: how many of those drug users do you want finding out about this:

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=177&invol=529

If the users were ever informed of this, there would probably be a lot of dead cops.

But then wait. Alternative Energy! HEMP, HEMP, HEMP, HEMP, HEMP, HEMP, HEMP...a natural source of oils for lubricants and cooking...can be grown in sufficient quantities on extremely small plots of land to be suitable as burning as a heat source!

Oh...since hemp has .001% thc, like your lawn, it can't be cultivated...sory for getting your hopes up.

actually in the midwest hemp was grown as a crop in WWII. There are still areas where it pops up on its own.

The whole legal/illegal drug thing should come under States' Rights. When a state votes to allow medicinal marijuana the federal government should NOT have the right to come in and usurp the decision.

Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 30, 05 | 10:50 pm

:))

<<When a state votes to allow medicinal marijuana the federal government should NOT have the right to come in and usurp the decision.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Sep 30, 05 | 10:50 pm

Absolutely!

Out of curiosity, what sanctity does a State's borders have if the federal government can arrest the State's citizens despite local laws and not even an armed insurrection against the federal OR local government? Better yet, would/can a governor order their guard units to uphold their 10th Amendment rights? How localized can interstate commerce reallistically be or get?????????????????????????????

swimmom: That article on Clinton was written yesterday, It is all about his legacy and it is not old news, and Kennedy is a sitting Senator, which makes also relevant. Interesting how you give Liberals a pass for academic fraud.

Kind of like liberals giving Senator Robert Bryd a pass for being a grand wizard.

mtnmn know it all: I was not the one who thinks that the press is not left-biased... you need the reality check, pal.

The only reason DeLay's indictment is a matter of "national concern" is because the media is liberally biased, and they hate anything and anyone affiliated with Bush or the Republican party.

Case in point; the Bush twins getting drunk at a party. This became media fodder for weeks, if not months.

Isn't this a common behavior for America's youth ? I'd consider them abnormal if they DIDN'T go out and party every now and again.

Why is it that we were relentlessly inundated with news reports about the twins, yet Al Gore's son being an alcoholic and a pothead, and being in and out of rehab, was widely ignored, and barely an honorable mention on the 1:30 a.m. news ?

The "news" I am referring to is the Big 4 (CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC). Also, the New York Times and the Washington Post (the most widely circulated and therefore the most read newspapers in the country).

Do a Google search (Al Gore III alcoholic, Al Gore son, Al Gore DUI), and you won't find a single story about Al Gore III's substance abuse issues mentioned by the Big 4, the Times, or the Post. You will only find mention of him in liberally driven blog's, or forum's, citing police corruption and conspiracy as the reason behind Al Gore III's arrests (sons of famous Democrats shouldn't be arrested for breaking the law !). So, we KNOW it happened...but it wasn't reported ! Why ?

I did find a small blurb mentioned in the NY Post.

NewYorkTimes.com: "Your search for al gore dui in all fields returned 0 results."

For "Al Gore Pot", nothing related to drugs, or his son appeared.

Nothing popped up for "Al Gore Son", either.

Coincidence ? I think not. Try it yourself.

Now, why do we care so much about this issue with Tom DeLay, as a nation ? This is barely newsworthy (it is ok to report it, but the level of scrutiny and negativity surrounding a case that has not yet reached a verdict is appalling), and just shows what lengths the liberals will go to in order to try and discredit a Republican. I read about it, will wait for the conviction, and have moved on. He'll take his licks if he is guilty.

In contrast, the media is in a FRENZY over it, foaming at the mouth, and making a circus out of it. There are at least 10 stories on this, in the past week. I didn't even click on page two of the list of stories the New York Times has run on DeLay's indictment !

Let's take a look at some of the Democrats that were not very honest with their money, and see how many times they were reported on.

Nick Mavroules, Massachusetts Democrat: tax evasion, accepting illegal gratuity (1992).

New York Times: 5 stories about Mr. Mavroules between 1989 and 1994 !!!!!! Five. Read it again. FIVE. Only two of these five had anything to do with Mr. Mavroules illegal activities, and of those two, both of them tried to "explain it away" by comparing Democratic fraud with Republican fraud, which somehow makes illegal activity not as bad for Democrats (in comparison to the crafty, evil Republicans. Democrats only break the law by accident !).

"HERE is the main difference between Democratic and Republican corruption: Democratic corruption tends to involve hands in the public till; in one word, graft. Republican corruption is more likely to entail abuse of the power of government. Not always, of course." - http://tinyurl.com/8uxog

Of course ! Not always, but MOST of the time !

Washington Post: "No results found for Nick Mavroules."

Not one ?! Not a single article written about the illegal activities of a prominent Democratic official (Congressman, Chair of the House Armed Services Committee, Subcommittee on Investigations) ?

ABC News: "No results were found for 'nick mavroules'."

Mhmm.

NBC News (MSNBC.com): "We couldn't find any results containing nick mavroules site:msnbc.msn.com"

Well, gee whiz. I don't see a trend here at all !

CNN: No results.

CBS: "No results found for nick mavroules."

Yeah, I figured as much.

Albert Bustamante, Texas Democrat: racketeering (1993).

New York Times: 4 stories from 1993-1994. No other mention of his illegal activities AFTER the last 1994 article.

Washington Post: "No results found for Albert Bustamante."

ABC: "No results were found for 'Albert Bustamante'."

NBC: No results.

CBS: 2 articles on him, altogether. The first is regarding Starr's investigation of Clinton. The second was about how whites are becoming a minority in California. Not one mention of his conviction.


CNN: No results.

Carroll Hubbard, Kentucky Democrat: fraud and corruption (1994).

New York Times: 2 articles total, regarding his conviction. The first stated, "Carroll Hubbard Jr., a former congressman who served two years in prison for federal campaign finance violations, said he planned to run for a State Senate seat in western Kentucky." Something tells me he will get it. The second article said, " The Justice Department said today that a former member of the House of Representatives, Carroll Hubbard Jr., served as an informer for the Federal Bureau of Investigation for about six months this year while trying to avoid prosecution on charges related to his use of campaign contributions."

A lousy two honorable mentions for a convicted Democrat.

Washington Post: 130 results came back for the name Carroll Hubbard. None of the stories on the 5 pages of links was about the politicians conviction or illegal activities. Apparently there is a football player with the same name, and everything he does is more interesting than what Mr. Carroll Hubbard, the convicted politician, has ever done.

ABC: "No results were found for 'carroll hubbard'."

NBC: 2 results. Neither were about Carroll Hubbard, but about other Hubbard's.

CBS: "No results found for carroll hubbard"

CNN: 3 results for "Carroll Hubbard". The first is an article about Ashcroft, and Hubbard's name is never mentioned. Not sure why it popped up as a result. The second article was about Ron Hubbard. The third was about the OK City bombing. Again, not related.

I think you guys are catching the point.

Here are some others that have similar results when searched:

Carl Perkins, Kentucky Democrat: fraud (1994).

Charlie Rose, North Carolina Democrat: financial-disclosure irregularities (1994).

Larry Smith, Florida Democrat: tax evasion (1994).

Walter Fauntroy, District of Columbia Democrat: financial-disclosure misdemeanor (1995).

Gerald Kleczka, Wisconsin Democrat: arrested for DWI (1995 and 1990); convicted DWI (1987).

Mel Reynolds, Illinois Democrat: sexual misconduct (1995).

Walter Tucker, California Democrat: extortion (1995).

Charles Wilson, Texas Democrat: paid $90,000 fine to Federal Election Commission (1995).

Joe Kolter, Pennsylvania Democrat: fraud and conspiracy (1996).

Dan Rostenkowski, Illinois Democrat: mail fraud (1996).

Mary Rose Oakar, Ohio Democrat: financial-disclosure irregularities (1998).

Austin J. Murphy, Pennsylvania Democrat: vote fraud (1999).

Now, let's see how many times DeLay has been mentioned, just regarding this indictment alone:

New York Times: 27 articles have been written just since the 27th of September. 3 front page stories, that I can tell.

Washington Post: 5 stories, that I can find. I couldn't use the search function. It broke. I Googled "washington post tom delay" instead, and found 5 stories that I can confirm, since March 1st, 2005.

ABC: 2 articles.

NBC: 9 articles, in Sept. alone.

CBS: 5 articles, and 3 videos, since May.

CNN: 9, just this month.

Obviously, New York Times is the victor on bias. And the number for the rest seem paltry, but you must take notice of the fact that all of these stories have been printed in the last 5 months alone.

The stories for the Democrats I mentioned were done over a span of many years. Which means they were printed every once in a while. And none of their numbers compete with that of DeLay.

People are dead in LA, TX, MS, and Iraq, and they want to focus on POSSIBLE (he hasn't been convicted yet, and according to American law, he is innocent until proven guilty) laundering of corporate campaign contributions ? This sort of dishonesty happens far too much, across the board (Republicans and Democrats alike), for it to be treated with such disdain and feigned shock.

If DeLay IS guilty, he wouldn't be the first. He is, however, more heavily publicized.

The media is out for his soul, and it is no surprise. He is a Republican, a conservative, and favored by the Bush Administration.

He will have no peace.

Posted by: unpoor on Oct 01, 05 | 10:50 am


<<The only reason DeLay's indictment is a matter of "national concern" is because the media is liberally biased, and they hate anything and anyone affiliated with Bush or the Republican party.>>


As opposed to the White House Sex Scandal...


<<Case in point; the Bush twins getting drunk at a party. This became media fodder for weeks, if not months.>>


You forget the favoritism shown a Bush crack-addict neice over every other American citizen who gets incarcerated instead of treatment for the same crimes?


<<Isn't this a common behavior for America's youth ? I'd consider them abnormal if they DIDN'T go out and party every now and again.>>


May I direct you to an earlier quote of yours:

"*** Promotion of Drug use..(No laws against illicit and clearly dangerous drugs) ..which means more drug addicts dying, and also attacking and harming others to try and fund their habits."

(wipe the sleep from your eyes. alcohol is a drug...)


<<So, we KNOW it happened...but it wasn't reported ! Why ?>>

Because you, and FAR to many others continuously vote Republi-Crat. But that is far too simple an explanation. You are, of course, aware that the Republican Congressional majority and Republican White House allowed the de-regulation of the media so that you will only ever hear one side of the story now? Sleep in the bed you voted for...


<<Now, why do we care so much about this issue with Tom DeLay, as a nation ?>>

Because government corruption is illegal? People lost their jobs and REPRESENTATION IN GOVERNMENT due to illigitimate elections bolstered with illegal funds?


<<Albert Bustamante, Texas Democrat: racketeering (1993)

Carl Perkins, Kentucky Democrat: fraud (1994).

Charlie Rose, North Carolina Democrat: financial-disclosure irregularities (1994).

Larry Smith, Florida Democrat: tax evasion (1994).

Walter Fauntroy, District of Columbia Democrat: financial-disclosure misdemeanor (1995).

Gerald Kleczka, Wisconsin Democrat: arrested for DWI (1995 and 1990); convicted DWI (1987).

Mel Reynolds, Illinois Democrat: sexual misconduct (1995).

Walter Tucker, California Democrat: extortion (1995).

Charles Wilson, Texas Democrat: paid $90,000 fine to Federal Election Commission (1995).

Joe Kolter, Pennsylvania Democrat: fraud and conspiracy (1996).

Dan Rostenkowski, Illinois Democrat: mail fraud (1996).

Mary Rose Oakar, Ohio Democrat: financial-disclosure irregularities (1998).

Austin J. Murphy, Pennsylvania Democrat: vote fraud (1999). >>


Has it occured to you that browsing the web to find news articles this old may not be the best avenue? Or that their *archives* may not be searchable from the main site page? Most Newspapers and other news orgs. didn't even have decent sites until after '99, let alone good sites. I know that for a fact as I personally installed many of the OC-3 and OC-45 connections to the internet for Bloomberg, CNN, Time-Warner, and many others. If you like, I can send you a thank you letter from Time-Warner off blog--it is addressed to me personally--not my company, not my workgroup.


<<POSSIBLE (he hasn't been convicted yet, and according to American law, he is innocent until proven guilty) laundering of corporate campaign contributions ?>>


Lets see on the scales of justice here...lie about sex...deny representation in government...lie about sex...deny representation in government.

Hmmm...I suppose you would prefer to lose your representation vs. have sex in the White House?


<<The media is out for his soul, and it is no surprise. He is a [insert fav party here], a [insert fav party here], and favored by the [insert fav party here] Administration.

He will have no peace.>>

Aside from not being aware that Delay and Bush don't talk much and aren't friends, sound like a Democrat we all know?
(hint: Clinton)








Now do you all understand the term Republi-Crat? For every "liberal" (aka Democrat) bias there is a "conservative" (aka Republican) bias, and they are all just as guilty and culpable as the other! However, noone seems too quick to implement a well known solution to this very problem:


STOP VOTING REPUBLI-CRAT

Next.

Probably need a disclaimer here for the 1:16 posting...

If anyone would like to counter unpoor's last post from the point of view of Democrats, I will be more than happy to share the same objectivity.


But, I would prefer a challenge.

Come to think of it, isn't denying representation to We the People:

sedition
[si-'di-shen]

Latin seditio, literally, separation, from sed apart + itio act of going, from ire to go

: the crime of creating a revolt, disturbance, or violence against lawful civil authority with the intent to cause its overthrow or destruction

(from a legal dictionary, which begs the question: why is there a legal dictionary seperate from a language dictionary unless the intent is to insure that We the People are denied the possibility to know the law, or to make that knowledge as obscure as possible? To have two definitions for words in common use only ensures that your Rights will be denied.)

...and the entire reason why placing legal documents, such as our Constitution, in Spanish or any other language will only further reduce the ability of We the People to know the law, yet increase our chances of being arrested and convicted for breaking them.

unpoor - I think you have WAY too much time on your hands.

Another case. Charles Colson did 4 years for have ONE FBI file illegally. The Clinton administration had 900 and nothing happened. Partly because Janet ElRino didn't do anything but also because the media thought it was no big deal.

swim... from your posts, you don't demonstrate any thinking at all.

Don't we ALL have an FBI file?

Byron York covers this in detail in, "The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy" Also check out Bernard Goldberg's, "Bias" and Arrogance". Interesting comments, from 5-derrr but not really anything of depth...just than a bunch of self- righteous blather.

<<just than a bunch of self- righteous blather.>>Posted by: unpoor on Oct 01, 05 | 3:15 pm

Not being able to refute it doesn't make it blather...

as for self-righteous, ever hear the phrase 'the kettle calling the pot black'?

Wldflr you continue believing that myth about old cars; You are really into myths of one kind or another,eh ?
And as I told you Ford's and GM cars are chock full of forign made parts.

Seems as if we have some budding book wrighters on this blog. Is this the place for that ? poor? 5p1der ?

sorry, cogito, usually the posts like unpoor's usually boil down to "you're a liberal" or "you're a conservative" and don't deserve the attention they get--unpoor's post had meat, even if only on the scale of a chicken wing.

Howdy all, I have returned for a brief visit. I gather the subject was alternative energy sources with the end result of reducing pollution of the air. From my limited time here on earth, I have observed and read about all kinds of devices and inventions to do just that and they seem to fade into obscurity because their purpose interferes with big business objectives.
To shift a bit, hurricanes originate in the ocean due to the change in temperature, if that is so, are we to believe that all of the volcanos in the Atlantic and Pacific are dormant and that humanity is the big culprit? I was taught that they are there, erupt and spew a lot of pollution around.
Can National Geographic and my science teachers be in error? Could be. We have satellites flying all over the place, I wonder if they can detect potential hot spots and aid in prediction. Just a thought.

Not to get back on topic or anything, but I found this link and wanted to post if for anyone who may be interested in building an energy efficient home; it sounds similar to what mtnman describes his as:

Main site:
http://www.homepower.com/

The Off-Grid home:
http://www.homepower.com/files/featured/109_12.pdf

I am guessing, though, that the actual choices in which systems to use would be made based on your geographic location, as that would be a big determiner: closer to the equator could use more solar than wind, and in the plains areas, probably vice-versa. I was glad to hear they use an on-demand water heater (even if only as a backup), since that is what I have in my home.

5p1der: So is it your feeling that a legal dictionary exists for the purpose of ensuring that people's rights will be denied ?

<<5p1der: So is it your feeling that a legal dictionary exists for the purpose of ensuring that people's rights will be denied ?>>Posted by: BobbyGee on Oct 01, 05 | 11:16 pm

No, not really. I do believe, though, that if those are the definitions, then there should be one available in every single public library. And that the public at large should be made extremely aware that there is a difference. Probably just me, but until I had the curiosity to go look for court cases, I never knew there was a seperate dictionary. I recognize a need for it.

Is it difficult to see, though, how not knowing that piece of information could lead to the denial of rights?

This is a cool site! Physics-162 Alternative Energy

Many links to many resources! Check out the link "Big List of links to Hydrogen Info"

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/2001/phys162.html

5p1der: Unfortunately, I guess that's what lawyers are for. A legal dictionary is available in my local library. It contains a great many definitions describing terms designed to protect people's rights. Ignorance is always a double-edged sword. And by the way, there's 'a rat' in separate. :^) Thanks for clearing up your comment. It didn't jibe with your other posts.

unpoor - you are clearly a partisan right-winger, as you list only Democrats in your ranting post yesterday. Try making an equivalent list with only Republicans starting with President Richard Nixon and Watergate 1973-74. Hint: it will be at least as long as your list of Democrats. Also, you should read the comments of the foreman of the Texas Grand Jury which indicted Rep. DeLay. He's a retired Republican law enforcement agent and is adament that neither politics or the Texas prosecuter, only the evidence itself, was involved in the indictment of Mr. DeLay.

Interesting ad from Chevron in a recent TIME magazine, claiming that for every two barrels of oil being used today, only one is being discovered, and in increasingly remote and difficult to reach areas. Among others, BP has also run several ads lately in TIME indicating their increasing research into alternatives to oil. DrDarryl's comments on this blog to the contrary, it seems clear that oil production has peaked and in a world where more people are relying on oil the resource is going to be caught in a supply/demand squeeze in the years and decades to come.

5p1der: I cant recall the law that prohibits government employees from participating in politics. Swimmom can you help. It is refered to by the name of the congressman who authored it. I believe it is the Hatch act.
I article of the UCMJ would be the one that covers a violation of a valid law of the U. S. This article allows the UCMJ to charge a uniformed member of the services when they violate many different U. S. Laws.
I have served as the prosecuter, the defense, president of Summary courtmartial boards, member of a General court martial (murder) board. In addition i have been a commander in combat and have issued several artical 15s. I admit these were a long time ago and my memory is fading and the UCMJ has changed greatly in the past 40 years. Some of the positions i held in the 60's now must be filled by a lawyer. By the way i started out as the Defense counsel but when i won a couple of cases i was "promoted " to prosecuter. You are right 5p1der you are the expert in all things. Thats why you have 800+ posts.

5p1der: I just don't think you are right all the time.

I am guessing, though, that the actual choices in which systems to use would be made based on your geographic location, as that would be a big determiner: closer to the equator could use more solar than wind, and in the plains areas, probably vice-versa. I was glad to hear they use an on-demand water heater (even if only as a backup), since that is what I have in my home. 5p1der posted 1 oct 10:33 pm.
If you had been reading the disscution at the end on sept on this site you would have read the above. You need to spend more time on the blog subject than on drugs and your libertarian politics. I believe you have too much time on your hands.

mtnman: Was that the "8th" grand jury that heard the case and retured the indictment. Or is the report that it took 8 gtrand juries only a rumor put out by the replicans?

mtnman: If you look at the history or oil exploration you might find that exploration only was undertaken when the fact you cited was suspected and the oil companies were making money. We have ungone a period where the oil companing made small profits and now that their profits are up we would expect an increase in exploration and some new refrineries.
However you can see the problems of the old system working. The enviromentalists habe made exploration and new refrinery construction very expensive and the "Factor" is attacking their profits. I believe that business is damned if it does and damned if it does not. Oil company profits will be the resource to explore alternative sources. Or if we wish we can depend on the government to develop the alternative sources. The best would be to use all resources to solve our problem as we have in the past. Will the partisan allow this to happen or will the poolitical fighting screw it up for all of us. Your comments please sir.

tk, I think the article you are referring to is article 92 of the UCMJ, which is sort of a catchall Article.
A military person may speak as a private citizen as long as the person is not in uniform and purport to represent the government. Government employees fall into basically the same category, though both categories must be careful of the ground they walk on.
We've gone from coal to oil and coal oil I wonder what is really next in the eyes of our industrial leaders, though I wish I could be around to witness the change.

tkearns,
You asked a question about government employees and politics. It is indeed the Hatch Act, and it was Clinton who reformed it to make it, IMO, more realistic. What the current Hatch Act says, basically, is you don't give up your rights just because you're a federal employee with regards to politics. Basically, the only two things you cannot do is run for a partisan office or raise money for a partisan campaign. You can work in a campaign, contribute money, and vote. There are some other rules about not wearing campaign buttons, for example at work, but they're minor things.

<<5p1der: I cant recall the law that prohibits government employees from participating in politics.>>

Are you telling me that the individuals who make up the Judicial, Executive, and Legislative branches are not in politics, or that they are not government employess?

<<5p1der: I just don't think you are right all the time.>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 11:56 am


Neither do I.

I am always amazed by the constipation of memory by republicans with regard to the first us president in dementia, namely: ronald reagan. Before reagan used the iranian govt. to get elected, pres. carter had formed the Dept of Energy and had embarked on a course for the us to develop alternative sources of energy. This included windpower, solar power, biomass,clean coal processes and fuel cells. When reagan came into office he did two things: he paid off the iranian govt with us military equipment including missles for delaying the release of the hostages until after the us elections, and he destroyed carter's alternative energy programs. Reagan even went to the extreme action of removing the solar panels from the white house roofs. Pres. reagan's dementia like Pres. george w. bush's dementia gives the appearance of a steadfast individual going straight ahead with no deviations, when in point of fact both of them "lurch" from problem to problem because they haven't the ability to factually analyze the problems and rationally deal with them. Let's give ronald baby credit for causing us to lose 25 years with regard to the energy problem and put us in jeopardy of becoming a third world country because of the energy policies of ronald reagan's mirrored twin, george w. bush.

<<5p1der: I just don't think you are right all the time.>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 11:56 am

You are free to refute in however manner you choose to my knowledge. I go to some effort to support my statements using information at hand (if I am aware how to access that information). You are free to do the same.

It would be a blessing to the 'your a liberal/conservative' rhetoric that is far more pervasive around here than it needs to be.

<<I article of the UCMJ would be the one that covers a violation of a valid law of the U. S. This article allows the UCMJ to charge a uniformed member of the services when they violate many different U. S. Laws.>>

I beleive you are saying that if Congress passes a law forbidding soldiers to pariticipate in politics, that this article covers a soldiers duty to adhere to that law? Thank you for making that known. I assume this applies to local laws for which ever community the soldier may be, also, correct?

<<I am guessing, though, that the actual choices in which systems to use would be made based on your geographic location, as that would be a big determiner: closer to the equator could use more solar than wind, and in the plains areas, probably vice-versa. I was glad to hear they use an on-demand water heater (even if only as a backup), since that is what I have in my home. 5p1der posted 1 oct 10:33 pm.
If you had been reading the disscution at the end on sept on this site you would have read the above. You need to spend more time on the blog subject than on drugs and your libertarian politics.>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 12:44 pm

Well, then you will feel comfort in knowing that i have no idea what you are trying to say other than "you drug addict libertarian". That you said you have a high efficiency water heater on Sept. 28? Ok. good for you. Now you know that I, too, have one. I bet mine is bigger than yours.

<<I believe you have too much time on your hands.>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 12:44 pm

Now that this comment has made its way to me: And this is what to you? For that matter, what is it to anyone in regard to anyone else?

<<tkearns,
You asked a question about government employees and politics. It is indeed the Hatch Act, and it was Clinton who reformed it to make it, IMO, more realistic. What the current Hatch Act says, basically, is you don't give up your rights just because you're a federal employee with regards to politics. Basically, the only two things you cannot do is run for a partisan office or raise money for a partisan campaign. You can work in a campaign, contribute money, and vote. There are some other rules about not wearing campaign buttons, for example at work, but they're minor things.>>Posted by: swimmom1dc on Oct 02, 05 | 4:10 pm

Thanks, swim for making this more clear.

<<The best would be to use all resources to solve our problem as we have in the past.>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 1:01 pm

Via government or private investments? Would you go for ending all subsidies for any resource?

How would you feel about a model for developing alternative energy similar to one that introduced the internet to the world? DARPA research has provided an entirely new economy, mode of learning/teaching, communication and list goes on--all of only having a desire to have two computers that couldn't talk, talk.

Private investment would, IMO, spur developement faster and cheaper, though. Especially since there is already much out there in solar, wind, hydro and nuclear.

xobrat: You are part correct on energy. Carter started a lot of programs for alternative fuels. However, Reagan should not receive all the credit for dismantling them. What realy happened that due to the large inflation during the carter term the projects far exceeded their unlimited budgets. Because economic analysis have to be performed on the current inflation rates and normal inflation could not be used into the future the continued development of the demonstration plants and the construction of the full plant was not economically feasable. Much like the levee in the big easy. Don't have any sites to support the above, however i served on the DOE management team for 10 of those big projects. My job was as the construction member of the team. Believe me you could not build anything that would be cost efficient in the late 70's and early eighties. That inflation period ruined many farmers during that perion. Farm products did not increase yet equipment soared and interest rates were 18%.
I also respectively ask you just state your point without using the bad words to describe our CIC. I takes away from the discussion and caused the farouts on both sides to get us off the topic. Thanks.
You might look at the sites published earlier which show the tremendous developments that have been made by the energy industry in the past 25 years. It is the public that has been slow to suport the new technologies. I believe that in colorado you could pay a little more a month for uyour electric which would go to development a wind farm. Participation was very minor by the public. I spent twice the cost for my radient heating system vs a forced air system. Its been 4 years now and in 3 more years i will have recovered my investment in lower energy costs.

5p1der: what i said was that you needed to spend more time to spend on topic than on drugs and your libertarian politics. What i meant was ......than talking about legalizing drugs and your libertatian politics. I did not mean to have it interpertated that i called you an addict. You should know by now that i do not slam anybody. I apprecieate your hard work to provide badckup and always axcess your sites.
What i meant about to much time on your hands is that you attempt to become an expert on too many topics. It dilutes your efforts on some and the debate does not continue. You have missed several of the points that i wanted to debate with you because of your many duties to cover all bases. I was once accused of that. An example is that i think you missed the infromation provided by others on the hatch act. No goverment employees and soldiers are just citizens when in a state or under local laws. They are tried under the local and state laws and the UCMJ does not apply. For some cases this is the case in foreign countries when the status of forces agrement covers that crime.
My appolagies for using the increct words so that my comments really din't say what i intended.
Incidently, the hatch act was pased by congress, how does clinton get the ability to change a law that congress passed. Bill did a lot of things, but i don't think he changed laws.

He didn't change laws, but Congress had tried to pass an updated Hatch Act previously, and I think it had been vetoed by Bush 1. (I have to check on that.) I do know that Clinton signed into law a revised version.

5p1der: I would go for all private investment but congress would not. They have to vie for the nmoney to go to the industriews in their states to get elected. Both sides. It also won't work if the taxes increase as this happens. Industry has to have the money to invest, if we let them have it by lowering taxes they will hire more people increase R&D, invest in plant and so forth. If we tax them then give it back in subsidies that works also except goverment gets bigger. It won't go one way or the other so that is why i am for the balanced approach. government AND private investment. Smaller government in the long run.

thanks swimmom. I was gone wrom government by clintons time so i am not up on that. My point was that the POTUS enforces the laws congress makes them. Din not want spider to give credit where it was not due.

wrom should be from

<<5p1der: what i said was that you needed to spend more time to spend on topic than on drugs and your libertarian politics. What i meant was ......than talking about legalizing drugs and your libertatian politics. I did not mean to have it interpertated that i called you an addict. You should know by now that i do not slam anybody. I apprecieate your hard work to provide badckup and always axcess your sites.
What i meant about to much time on your hands is that you attempt to become an expert on too many topics. It dilutes your efforts on some and the debate does not continue. You have missed several of the points that i wanted to debate with you because of your many duties to cover all bases. I was once accused of that. An example is that i think you missed the infromation provided by others on the hatch act. No goverment employees and soldiers are just citizens when in a state or under local laws. They are tried under the local and state laws and the UCMJ does not apply. For some cases this is the case in foreign countries when the status of forces agrement covers that crime.
My appolagies for using the increct words so that my comments really din't say what i intended.
>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 03, 05 | 10:34 am


Thank you. Sometimes I have trouble interpreting the intent of a posting, as BobbyGee can surely inform you. Not one of us here is free from "...using the increct words so that my comments really din't say what i intended."

I would like to defend, though, 'expert on too many topics'; I think you will find that I actually try to limit what I comment on. For instance, I had next to no posts in the topics of Katrina, the children after katrina, or Scopes. In the case of the hurricane topics, I don't know enough about FEMA, or specific states' disaster abilities (other than the state in which I live) nor do I have an interest in blaming anyone or their actions for what a storm did. Of course, the best course in discussing religion, IMO, is to allow people their beliefs and say nothing to them that may offend their beliefs--because I have an expectation of same.

<<Incidently, the hatch act was pased by congress, how does clinton get the ability to change a law that congress passed. Bill did a lot of things, but i don't think he changed laws.>>

This too makes me wonder. I have always been under the impression that, simplistically, the Executive branch executes the law, not creates them. Which is why i have a problem with executive orders (such as is the policy of drug prohibition). It could be that as the chief law enforcement official for the nation, he can decide to some degree how that law is applied?

Realistically, the Executive Branch does far more than just "execute the law". While it cannot create law, it can get a Senator or Congressman to introduce legislation it wants. It can also put the weight of its bully pulpit and inherent power to get Congress to pass it. Clearly, legislation that the WH puts its weight behind has a better chance of passing than legislation it ignores.

The WH can also ignore laws or at least appropriations that Congress passes. For example, Congress has appropriated $34 million each year for UN population planning that Bush has refused each year to actually spend. The result is thousands of women dying in Africa because of his agenda.

Correction: I am not at all sure that a Hatch Act revision came up before Bush I. At least I'm sure Clinton signed into law a revision.

<<While it cannot create law...>>Posted by: swimmom1dc on Oct 03, 05 | 11:15 am

Then what is an executive order? If they are not law, they are enforced as such, aren't they?

This is the definition of an executive order from the Nat'l Archives web page:

Executive orders are official documents, numbered consecutively, through which the President of the United States manages the operations of the Federal Government.
(doesn't say much, does it?)

Most of them seem to be assorted proclamations, setting up of commissions, etc. But some seem to be a way around existing laws.

"The Presidential Records Act, which defied Richard Nixon's last attempt to conceal his papers and tape recordings, stated that presidential records are the property of the government and do not belong to former presidents. In a spirit of compromise, the act guaranteed public access to papers 12 years after a president has left office.

Then, on Nov. 1, President Bush issued an executive order that gives himself -- as well as former presidents -- the right to veto requests to open any presidential records. Even if a former president wants his records to be released, the executive order permits Bush to exercise executive privilege. It also gives him and former presidents an indefinite amount of time to ponder any requests.

Bush's executive order openly violates the Presidential Records Act passed by Congress in 1978."

(These are not my words, but sentiments I found on many web pages.)

5p1der in Europe they have water heaters that heat the water as it comes through the pipes. You therefore never run out of hot water. Then size of the unit is not a factor. They are either gas or electric and the tariffs put on them here make them outrageously expensive.

Yes Clinton signed the revision to the Hatch Act.

As i understand it executive orders are defination as to how the law will be interperated, and therefor enfroced. They may exceed that at times.
wldflwr: we have them here also . Without the tarriff they are more expensive than the standard. Also a bit more incomvient. And you know we as citizens want convienance.

Haven't looked into these water heaters since the second tour in Germany. Loved never having to worry about hot water! And best of all the faucets to the side in the middle of the bathtub, no scooting around for more warm water! The prices in this country were outrageous though! There were big gas units in the bathroom and small electric ones in the kitchen. Would love to have another washing machine that heats the water as it comes in as well.

Handles on inside doors are do-able as are light switches on the outside of the rooms - no more groping in the dark.

I didn't like the water-saving toilets and small american kids were afraid of the ones here with the bowl of water when we got back!

At the time we were there centralized heating was new to the scene. The heat was turned off 31 March no matter what the weather did and it didn't come back on until 1 October. Of course the locals wore a lot of natural fiber clothing in layers. Americans were really considered just spoiled in expecting heat thru the year.

Another real convenience I haven't seen here although I bet someone has them - big picture windows that pivot 360º so you can spin them around to wash the outside - especially nice in high rise apartments, just don't lean on them while washing the glass!

Of course you don't see flimsy wood-frame construction in Germany either - the apartment buildings are built of cement blocks, then plastered over on the outside.

We may have to give up some convenience this winter if gas and oil prices continue to rise.

tHERE JUST MAY BE MATTERS OF NATIONAL SECURITY THAT MAY STILL BE VALID AFTER 12 YEARS. iN MATTERS OF NATIONAL SECURITY i WILL GO WITH THE CIC. I know some think there should be no secrets. But that is not how the world works. There must be some secrets of this union would not survive more than a year.

<<5p1der in Europe they have water heaters that heat the water as it comes through the pipes. You therefore never run out of hot water. Then size of the unit is not a factor. They are either gas or electric and the tariffs put on them here make them outrageously expensive.>>Posted by: WldFlwr on Oct 03, 05 | 3:18 pm

Ours is gas; we had it installed when the house was built; going from a smaller home with fewer people using hot water to a larger home, and we have since added an additional family member, we still see the cost savings. No tank and all the parts are recyclable, but! The flow meter trips at 2.5 gpm, which is not enough to run a tap by itself just for warm water. It has its limitations (I don't recomend it in a 2 story home--personal experience). I also think the climate should be a little warmer since in the winter, the ground temp makes it harder to heat the water to temp before heading on its merry way to the tap. Since I live in Missouri, take the climate thing for what it is worth.

Overall, I like it, Mrs. 5p1der does not.

Posted by: swimmom1dc on Oct 03, 05 | 11:58 am


I believe the word for what you just told us is "fascism".
the legal dictionary at findlaw.com had no definitin for fascism.

from dictionary.com:

fas·cism Audio pronunciation of "fascism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.

1. often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.


Anyone ever hear of the "Separation of Powers Restoration Act"?

http://www.constitution.org/legis/99hr2655.htm



(Any1 wanna take bets on whether or not the "new" Supreme Court changes any of this? LMAO!)

well now let's see, are you saying the present administration is fascist?

We don't have a dictator - still have Congress in there and if anyone has noted, there are many Republicans very upset about Ms Mier's appointment.

Stringent economic controls - if we had them we wouldn't be in such a mess!

Suppression thru terrorism or censorship? sure can't prove censorship in this country - just turn on the TV or go to a movie; and no storm troopers yet

However, the hurricane situation has moved us one step in the wrong direction toward a military government which is a dangerous move for any democracy. Active Duty troops may be the only people organized and well enough equipped to manage such a crisis but we do not want to cross that line with them and have martial law. Bad idea!

just because it is moving slower than previous fascist regimes, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Surely a mantra of anti-gun control folks is in regard to Hitler's Germany?

There is some discussion above about executive orders, right? If an executive order can be made to affect end runs on the Constitution, as I know the treason of the Drug War to be, then:

FASCISM

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator = Anyone ever hear of the "Separation of Powers Restoration Act"?

http://www.constitution.org/legis/99hr2655.htm

stringent socioeconomic controls = Federal Reserve

suppression of the opposition through terror... = (so far it is mildly called 'you're a liberal/conservative' and threats of exposing your dirty laundry)

suppression of the opposition through ...censorship = Federal Election Commision

and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. = I'm not even gonna go here...

Back to the subject of alternative energy...

tkearns - I'm glad that you have found your investment in radiant floor heating worthwhile. Where I sit now as I write - in my office - I am glad I decided on radiant 10 years ago when I built this place. As a contractor, during the past decade I would say 90% of the places I have built - including several good sized commercial buildings - have used radiant heat, and every single client has been pleased with the result. My mechanical subcontractor has gotten radiant down so well that it actually costs very comparably with conventional forced air, although still more than inefficient baseboard. Most people prefer efficiency here, especially those who have to use propane as a heating fuel.

you also write:

"mtnman: If you look at the history or oil exploration you might find that exploration only was undertaken when the fact you cited was suspected and the oil companies were making money. We have ungone a period where the oil companing made small profits and now that their profits are up we would expect an increase in exploration and some new refrineries.
However you can see the problems of the old system working. The enviromentalists habe made exploration and new refrinery construction very expensive and the "Factor" is attacking their profits. I believe that business is damned if it does and damned if it does not. Oil company profits will be the resource to explore alternative sources. Or if we wish we can depend on the government to develop the alternative sources. The best would be to use all resources to solve our problem as we have in the past. Will the partisan allow this to happen or will the poolitical fighting screw it up for all of us. Your comments please sir.

Posted by: tkearns on Oct 02, 05 | 1:01 pm"

Although your sentence structure is a bit hard to follow, I'll try to address your comments.

A couple of days ago I came across an AP article that discussed oil shale as a possibility once again. It seems that the technology may be catching up with the price of extraction. If you read the article, you may find that there are concerns about the effect of the extraction process opn the environment. Of special concern to us Westerners is the volume of water - an increasingly precious resource in the region - necessary for this extraction process. Here is the article is you want to read it yourself:

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SHALES_COMEBACK?SITE=NMSAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I'm not so sure that oil company profits necessarily have to be the driving force behind new energy technologies. Solar and wind technologies have been developed by several companies without ties to Big Oil. It's my impression that Big Oil does not want to be left behind and that is why they are making big profits now so as to get involved with the process of creating new alternatives. From the ads I cited in previous posts in this topic, it would appear that the oil companies are trying to subtly prepare their customer base for the reality that oil resources are running out. This dovetails with other articles in the TIME issue of two weeks ago suggesting that Saudi oil reserves are substantially lower than previously projected.

As for the environmentalists being the sole reason why new refineries have not been built - first, if a refinery cannot be built to conform to national and local environmental codes, it would seem that it has to be up to the oil companies to figure out ways to minimize environmental impact. Is it really that hard to build clean refineries? With the huge profits that Big Oil have reaped recently, what excuse do they have now for not making environment-friendly refinery construction a priority? Secondly, the recent hurricanes along the Gulf Coast have shown the vulnerabilty of building so many refineries in sandy and storm prone locations. There should be a serious re-evaluation not only in the location of the refineries but also as to how to best build new ones that will have minimal pollution impacts on the areas they are built.

5p1der: Am I reading you correctly that you believe our form of government is fascist ? Or that it's working its way in that direction ? And that this is the result of the Separation of Powers Restoration Act ? Which Congress legislated this act and what President signed it into law ? Thank you.

<<5p1der: Am I reading you correctly that you believe our form of government is fascist ? Or that it's working its way in that direction ? And that this is the result of the Separation of Powers Restoration Act ? Which Congress legislated this act and what President signed it into law ? Thank you.>>Posted by: BobbyGee on Oct 04, 05 | 9:40 am


Headed there (not by willful intent, though). If I read the Act correctly, I think it is intended to stop the nation's movement in that direction. I actually found the bill on a search using ' president "executive order" ' as the search criteria. I did not see anything that indicated this has been signed into law. It did, however, seem to provide reasonable explanation for itself as listed under Section 2, Findings. In reading the short bill, it seems that there are at least 2 Congressmen who seem to think that an executive order equals legislation.

"In reading the short bill, it seems that there are at least 2 Congressmen who seem to think that an executive order equals legislation."

Well we don't want the executive branch legislating any more than we want the judicial branch legislating.

Somehow we seem to have lost our balance in the checks and balances.

and mtman you are absolutely right about the oil companies. They are the proof positive that trickle down economics doesn't work. The profits should be going back into developing cleaner refineries and building new ones not on seashores.

What is the cost differential per square foot on radiant heating as opposed to standard forced air?

Cogito, wldflwr is correct. If you are not into the prestige thing, old cars can be a better economic choice than new ones. The best case, however, is a new car that becomes a classic, say a 1957 Chevy, a current Pontiac GTO, a current Ford GT, a current Ford Crown Victoria LS Sport, or a current Cheverolet Corvette Z06. Such cars actuall increase in value over time.

Wintersoldier, I believe that National Geographic has a great TV special on the eruptive potential of Yellowstone National Park. It is really a huge caldera from an ancient and still active volcano. It is a thought provoking and interesting program based on some adverntursome speculation. There is also a similar, but somewhat smaller ancient caldera in the area of Mammoth, California.

It is difficult to know beyond our present level of accuracy when and in what way a volcano is going to erupt because many of the steering conditions are difficult to observe and do not generally occur before and eruption is immenent.

The projection of the possible pollution effect of such a mammoth eruption are dramatic and interesting.

Unpoor, this blog is a format for commentary, not novellas. There is no point in competing to see who can post the longest comment.

And what about your dementia, xobrat?

Wldflwr, the oil companies are currently constrained by law from building new refineries and prevented by lawsuit from drilling for oil in may places. This is not their doing and it is not right to accuse them of not doing that which the principal accusers have prevented them from doing. When decisions are made in Washington that are better made by those whose money is at risk, very bad things happen. Particularly when the general public is unable or unwilling to keep track of who is doing what to whom.

Good point Darryl. Had overlooked that. The day is coming that we will have to choose between heat/cooling and the environment. As for where to put refinerines, nobody wants one in their neighborhood. Economically it is best to have them along the Gulf coast but as this summer has shown us that is a big gamble.

The Democrats dig for dirt but you won't read it in Time Magazine. Can't you just imagine if this was a Republican?

Schumer's Plumbers

Politics: Staff members for a champion of the right to privacy and a leading critic of identity theft fraudulently obtained the credit report of a rising black political star. Your turn for tough questions, Sen. Schumer.
While the media focus on House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's alleged skirting of campaign laws to get Republicans elected, former Education Secretary Bill Bennett's alleged racially insensitive hypothetical regarding blacks, crime and abortion, and Sen. Bill Frist's recent sale of stock, a real crime against a black politician has been committed in virtual silence.
Sen. Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, is chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC), and it's his job to get Democrats elected in hopes of wresting Senate control from the GOP. Michael Steele is lieutenant governor of Maryland, and the DSCC, and along with most everyone else, expects Steele to run for the open seat of retiring Sen. Paul Sarbanes.
Steele, an African American, is a rising star in a Republican party regularly accused of racial insensitivity if not outright racism, a party that thought so highly of him and his political future that it chose him to be the deputy permanent chairman of the 2004 Republican Convention.
Steele, a Catholic who once trained for the priesthood, was inspired to join the Republican Party by Ronald Reagan's failed 1976 presidential bid. He demonstrated in his appearance at the 2004 convention that he has charisma, warmth and a keen grasp of public policy. He has already won statewide in Maryland.
Apparently nothing frightens the DSCC more than an articulate and charismatic black American who also happens to be a Reagan conservative. How else to explain the behavior of two of Schumer's campaign committee members — research director Katie Barge and junior staffer Lauren Weiner — who dug for dirt using Steele's Social Security number, reportedly culled from court records, to fraudulently and illegally obtain his credit report?
Columnist Michelle Malkin has reported that as of Sept. 30, according to Steele staffers, Schumer, who is a longtime crusader against identity theft and denies any knowledge of the scheme, had offered no apology for the invasion of Steele's privacy by people in his employ or given any hint as to what they were after or why they did it.
These were no naive, overzealous interns. Barge is a longtime Democratic operative who led the research unit for a liberal media watchdog group run by journalist David Brock. She led the opposition research team for failed Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards. She knew the ropes and the rules.
So what motivated her and Weiner to knowingly and willingly break the law and put their freedom and future at risk? Under the federal Fair Credit Reporting Act, knowingly and willfully obtaining a credit report under false pretenses is a felony punishable with a fine and a maximum two years in prison.
Reportedly, the two women confessed to the act in July, were suspended with pay until Aug. 31 and finally resigned in mid-September. One would think a potential felony by staffers for a top Democrat — a case being investigated by the U.S. attorney's office in D.C. as well as the FBI — would at least get a paragraph of coverage somewhere between the grocery coupons and the obituaries.
Can you imagine the media firestorm if staffers for, say, Frist, had used Barack Obama's Social Security number to fraudulently obtain his credit report looking for stuff to derail his Senate campaign? Frist would have been before a media firing squad faster than you can say Bill Bennett.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=3&issue=20051003

it always strikes me as odd that the rush to unload stock in the Frist family venture came two weeks after he sold his. Why is it not possible that word leaked that he sold and THEN the crash, rather than the other way around?

Great article. His history of the 80's boom and bust is a little off. Sounds like his source was a couple of locals. The fact that CO. got a lot of infrastructure and a retirement community adds something to the mix. The price of oil had to go to 50.00 a barrel in order for the economics to work. My wife worked for TOSCO and that is how we got to Boulder in 83.
I spent three years on the DOE management teams for all of the fossel fuel projects in the seventies. Most of which were coal to gas. Doe funded several retorts for shale oil. From the article it sounds as if the interest is allready there and work is proceeding. As i said earlier it is a matter of economics. Water is a question but several alternatives were being explored to solve that problem.
Big oil has been involved in the other renewables. Oil with the utilities. Some utilities do not like to get involved with owning the plants because of the cost and bad feeling with there customers. Wisconsin requires a certain % o the engery used in the state to be from wind. The wisconsin utility did not want to tell its customers that it was building wind. Rumors that it effects the cows and does other bad things to the invirement. The environmentlists are upset that it kills birds. Anyway the wind farm in my area is owned by Fla. Power and Light and it was constructed by ENRON. The power is purchased by wisconsin utilities and goes to the Milwaukee area. The city folks did not want it in their back yard.
You may have something withthe ads. However , there are far too many that say we have 500 years left of oil. I don't know who is right but i bet the true answer in in the middle of each sides estimates.
on the refrineries: I don't think it is the compliance it is the process. It just takes too long to get them on line and the laws change during the process. The same problem that cheep nuclear became not so cheep and eventually not feasiable.

The refirneries are on the gulf coast because that is where most of the us oil is obtained and where the ports are for foreign oil. Also shipping by water is cheapest and the fininished product can go out of the coast ports. If the alaskan oil could be piped to the midwest the new refineries could be in the midwest. Shale oil will be produced in the north midwest states and the refineries will be at mine mouth there. No problem with the neighbors in the high plains. They just won't like the influx of people.
The Mammoth volcano i believe is where the geothermal project was in the 70's. Would it not be nice if we could tap that hot bed and take enough energy from it to create electricity and lower the potential of the volcano to erecp. That would be the two pigeons with one sling shot load.

Iceland is heated with the geothermal activity beneath them but I think I would be really nervous sitting on top of so much trapped energy. Imagine the power we could generate by harnessing Old Faithful. There are 'hot spots' all over the U.S. we could tap into.

Yeah Wldflwr: I agree great idea…let’s start with Ted Kennedy’s mouth. (Alheck of alot of hot gas there.)

tkearns: You mean there are TWO of us from Boulder on this blog?

No, tk, the 500 year is only an estimate, but it is on the low side.

Note that Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida has changed his position on drilling for oil on the continental shelf off Florida.

Darryl the people of Florida are absoluely opposed to drilling off their shores because so much of their income is from their pristine beaches and they are afraid of oil spills. They fight every effort of the oil industry down there.

just read what I meant not what I typed :)

Yes DrD: But i left Boulder in 2000 after spending 18 years there and working at rocky flats. I am now a cheese head. I worked for and with the DOE for 24 years and the DOD for 20+ years before that. Just another breaucrat. With no orginal thoughts. I wish i would have met you while in boulder. I might be rich now.

In the seventies the DOE spent 267 million on the design of one coal gasification demonstration plant. There was also a competing coal gasification plant and an equal amount was spent on the design of it. I believe Conoco was the big partner on one and a enity called ICGG was the partner on the other. ICGG was several utilities the biggest one was Peoples Gas out of Chicago.
That was before auto cad and the demo designs consisted of over 10,000 drawings. All done on the boards. A model was built at the cost of about 2 million. It may still be sitting in a warehouse somewhere. I think that the process would be viable now. The design should be a lot cheaper with the auto-cad capabilities. The plant was to be at the mine mouth in southern Illinois. One of the problems is what to do with the elemental sulfur, 80 tons a day extracted.
I think we could resolve the energy problem if we just relooked at the projects we started before.

<<Then, on Nov. 1, President Bush issued an executive order that gives himself -- as well as former presidents -- the right to veto requests to open any presidential records. Even if a former president wants his records to be released, the executive order permits Bush to exercise executive privilege. It also gives him and former presidents an indefinite amount of time to ponder any requests.

Bush's executive order openly violates the Presidential Records Act passed by Congress in 1978.">>Posted by: swimmom1dc on Oct 03, 05 | 11:58 am


Out of curiosity, wouldn't this also violate the Freedom of Information Act? (I don't read lawyer-ese very well.)

http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/foiastat.htm

5p1der: Would you plese post the link to the executive order in question. I would like to read the entire order. I am not good at doing anything on this puter. Barely literate since i am old dog and you know how that goes with new tricks. EH!

tkearns: If you are referring the executive order that swimmomdc is asking about, i'll try. If not, let me know which one in particular. The discussion on executive order started as the questioning of a statement saying the 'Executive Branch' does not have law making ability.

Since swimmomdc's claim is Nov1, it may be that it has not been updated, but here is the WH's list of executive orders:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

LOL--here is an example of an executive order though (my own amusement here, folks, really)! it changes rates of pay without ever saying what those rates of pay are! Man, I am SOOOOO glad the Constitution is written in plain English!

Hey, paul, get a load of this:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040303-9.html

I found nothing referencing a recent executive order at findlaw.com, but it too may not be updated. I did see a news article when i searched news.google.com, but nothing in it said executive order. Now, my question is, is there some other instrument the president has, maybe more obscure, which has the power of executive order and causing the confusion? people mix up bills and laws all the time...

<<I am not good at doing anything on this puter. Barely literate since i am old dog and you know how that goes with new tricks. EH!>>Posted by: tkearns on Oct 05, 05 | 10:32 pm

Just a little practice! All through engineering school I was reminded that it is not nearly as important to remember information as it is to know where to find it. That is why libraries are so good. Internet? Welcome to the new library and vessel of the new economy.

you might find this post interesting:

The U.S. Economy - What's next? Posted by: 5p1der on May 14, 05 | 12:24 pm

The executive order can be found at the National Archives web site:
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/2001-wbush.html#13233

Scroll down to #13233 Further Implementation of Presidential Records Act 11/1/2001. It's a pdf file.

5pider, for your information, a lot of regulations and laws are written like that. They only include the changes and you have to have the original statute in order to insert all the changes and make any sense of it.

Well, thanks...I guess no matter what, Nov 1 this year was not going to be found...I'll claim stupidity based on diverted attention.

I also realize that laws are written like that very frequently and to the point of unreadability. The unreadability aspect was what I was getting at.

I think the unreadability part is intentional. That way it's hard to vote against it.

...or hard to know what, exactly, it says...

I see what you mean, wldflwr. We'll see about oil drilling. Much of it may well be sufficiently offshore so that it cannot be seen from the beach.

Too bad, tk. I now use one of the Rocky Flats buildings as a lab. I suppose being a "cheese head" may well be a step up from being a "rock head". Hope you are doing well.

That's why we have courts, Swimmom. Clearly, this is not one of the President's brighter moments.

>>>>Yes alternative power sorces............... this president are to beholdin to that bg money.

Posted by: cogito on Sep 22, 05 | 3:29 pm<<<<<

That's a great idea indeed for America to bring into action forthwith because as a result of that oil wouldn't remain anymore a big problem here.

Alternative Energy Production (A.R.Shams’s ‘Creative Living Spirit’ Reflection):

Energy Shortage stands as big crisis for in part of the world now.

Since oil has been taken as the chief source of energy producing material, many countries of the world have to look towards the lands rich in oil resources and some of them try to conquer such lands and that creates hostility and war causing loss of lives and economy and also unrest around the world.

Why not then alternative energy production as suggested by the scientists and others from time to time that can save the world out of dangers of loss of economy, war and after war effects!

Shams, alternative energy production isn't nearly as cost efficent as it must be to compete with oil. It presently costs 14% more to produce ethanol than oil.

But yes, we need to cut off the Arabs golden stream of American Dollars. They have us in a vise grip. they are able to blackmail us.

What do you think?

Swoflea,

<<<<<Shams, alternative energy production isn't nearly as cost efficent as it must be to compete with oil. It presently costs 14% more to produce ethanol than oil.

But yes, we need to cut off the Arabs golden stream of American Dollars. They have us in a vise grip. they are able to blackmail us.

What do you think?>>>>>


Many people believe that America isn't that ingenious to have been blackmailed by the oil resource countries, it's rather made to do so as it does although neither its government nor the people prefer so doing at the cost of lives and economy of both its own and the victimized ill-fated land.

There must be a third party that may have been blackmailing America to do so at their (the third party) vested interest.

The world must now understand who can be that third or the fourth party who blackmail other’s power and influence to have done their work of getting milk, whereas, the cream would go in their (the third/fourth party) credit?

What would be your say?

shams, crude is today $63.00 a B. The US uses 90 million barrels a day. As the needs of China and India grow we will be competing with them. this is a road to disaster. we must find alternative sources asap. I think we must do this in 5 years of die.

http://spongeblog.blog-city.com/oil.htm
This subject will always be relevant until we follow up on searching for those "alternative sources." Are they on Google?

The alternative sources are there and in some cases are just a case of alternative locations of oil. (Shale as discussed above) For electric [power a combination of wind, hydroelectric and most imoportantly nuclear. The time will come when fusion will be a source of nuclear power without the radiation. The reactor can be located in the center of cities and the waste heat used for heating of buildings and process heat for manufacturing.
Its there all we have to do is do the R&D and stick to it. WE started it in the seventies and abandoned it in the 80's. Why the enviromental panic took over and we made the existing power generation much more expensive. It is the typical knee jerk reaction the government has to any perceived public problem because they want the votes. Alas maybe this is one of the things we have to put up with to be the great republic we are.

tkearns - shale oil extraction is starting to look more promising. However, there are serious drawbacks, including the necessity of destroying large tracts of land and the huge amount of water needed. The water issue is of particular concern here in the West and may be one of the biggest obstacles for shale oil extraction in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming.

You don't mention solar, which to me will be among the most important alternate sources of electricity.

Snoflea - there are alternatives already that are being by-passed by the oil companies and our short-sighted government. Bio-diesel is a real alternative, and as I have mentioned several times on this blog, I have personal experience using it in my commercial vehicles. So is ethanol. What is needed is a focus on these types of fuel, including the building of new facilities to process the biomass and produce the fuel. Just think - if we had spent one tenth of what we have spent on the foolish excursion into Iraq on the development of alternatives to oil, we would have a well developed infrastructure in place to make us more self-sufficient and less dependent on foreign energy sources.

A week ago we visited our daughter for Parents' Weekend at MIT. She is a senior at MIT and will be receiving her degree in nuclear physics this coming June. During the past couple of years, she has worked on a project involving the use of the heat generated by nuclear power plants to split hydrogen off of water with the potential use for hydrogen power cells. One of the events of Parents' weekend included a reception with the professors in her department, which allowed us to engage in some interesting conversation. We were able to discuss the potential for hydrogen fuel cells with some of the leading experts in the field, and came back with the knowledge that hydrogen fuel cells are not going to be a likely fuel source. The problem with hydrogen is incredibly simple - hydrogen is the smallest molecule and hence the most difficult to store, as it will either easily bond or even pass through virtually all other molecular structures that may be used to contain it. Lots of talk has been made about the potential for hydrogen as fuels for vehicles, but the transport and storage issues surrounding hydrogen appear to be insurmountable.

With all due respect, swoflea, we do not have a shortage of oil, we have a shortage of freedom. Were the oil companies free to pursue, obtain, refine and market petroleum and its products, we would not have the problems we have today. Mother Nature's Little Storm Troopers have been allowed to constrain and foul up the energy industry to the point where no new refinery has been built in the United States for decades. This is not a product of nature, it is a product of applied idiocy. The world needs more freedom, not more foolishness.

Bingo, mtnman! In the long run, hydrogen fusion offers more potential. We really need to get beyond burning things for energy.

As home heating costs go up, and up, this season 100% in some areas over last season, the need for energy conservation will be evident to everyone. Matters not how it's done, just do it. Both China and India will be comsuming as much oil in a few years as we are now. What we will need a decade from now depends on our economy. Surely it will be a lot more than we are using now. Can we guarantee a reliable amount of oil for us, considering what China and India will demand? Just to say that enough oil exists isn't very reassuring. We better do something smart now. And it wont be making ethenol from corn. Thats a bad deal. It's nothing but a subsidy to already bloated big corn producers and grain brokers, such as ADM. And if you talk about exotic forms of fuel, well...that may take 50 years to get it done. (as sez Larry the Cable Guy). Get it done. We need a solution sooner than that.

Swo: You have not read all the posts. In at least 20 post on this thread people have said that it takes a combination of all sources to solve the problem. It has been said many different ways that you have to have oil forever but a very small amount of it Probably for lubrication in the far future. However the horse and water were our source of engerty for a long time. Wood was used for heat. We waste a lot of wood today because the smoke police don't like to smell it. We contineue to use coal in some places because we can not put the coal miners out of work and they are protected by a powerful senator. Ity is going to take a combination of sources and they are going to have to be phased in as they become feasable. What it requires to surive in this world is a coordinated and planed 50 year program that works toward a balanced use of all sources in 50 years. The energy department should be the agency to develop this plan but have been prevented by the congress for over thirty years. The congress likes their favorites and we spent the money on polution control of existing sources over development of clean sources. We required the utility companies to install polution equipment on their plants rather than develop more efficient processes. We made our oil companies install polution control on their existing plant rather than build new ones. In fact we prohibited new refrineries. We did not let them drill for new sources. WE killed the nuclear industry because of the perception of a nuclear explosion. The gloom and doom movie makers make a movie about a nuclear winter and the industry is gone. BTW about 100,000 jobs went with it and the number of engineers getting degrees has reached only one tenth the number that china graduated this year. WE are losing in every technical area and that is what has saved us for the past 20 years. It doesn't look good. So lets get congress back to what it should be doing rather than fight the party in power with stupid lawsuits and setup grand juries. We blame the federal government for the LA hurricane problem. FEMA did great last year when FLA had 4 hurricanes and has done well this year as well. Whats the differance. Only the Local officials.

sorry: when i get on a rant i forget to0 make paragraphs. I did that all in one bereath also. LOL

Whew, Wish I had said that. Yep, everything you say is true. And we are losing in the Ph.D engineering grad race. Now mostly Indians, Chinese, others. But, another troubling thing is coming ...fast...Fareed Zakaria - The New York Times says this in a review of Friedmans new great book...
Terrorism remains a threat, and we will all continue to be fascinated by upheavals in Lebanon, events in Iran and reforms in Egypt. But ultimately these trends are unlikely to shape the world's future. The countries of the Middle East have been losers in the age of globalization, out of step in an age of free markets, free trade and democratic politics. The world's future -- the big picture -- is more likely to be shaped by the winners of this era. And if the United States thought it was difficult to deal with the losers, the winners present an even thornier set of challenges. This is the implication of the New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman's excellent new book, The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-First Century.

The problem is much more complex than just drilling for more oil in Alaska, or getting the Saudis to pump more oil. We are in a serious do or die competition with a bunch of young Indians and Chinese that may kick our butts in the survival struggle of our Nation.

Swo: You got it. Its not just one thing it is the whole nine yards. We cant win the race because the political situation and division within is the fatal flaw. The trite expression is not trite at all it is the truth.
UNITED WE STAND----DIVIDED WE FALL.
THIS GOES FOR ALL ISSUES.
we should debate all issues and then vote either as a country, congress or follow the elected leaders. But all must follow the rules. If you lose the election and we go to war, then if called to serve you serve, you do not go to the streets and protest or to canada, you support your country.
If the law says the president nominates people to the SC and congress evaluates the nominee to see if he/she can do the job . Thats what happens. Not an underground campaign by different groups to embaress the nominee to withdraw, or the president to withdraw the nominee. You vote on this one and then do whats next, either start over or swear the new Justice in.
I can not believe that these talk show hosts know more than the president who is and who is not qualified for the job. There is nothing that says that the best qualified person should get the job. That is impossible to determine since the only requirement is to make a decision based on the merits of the case and the corformance with the law. Only one question is necessary. "Will you do what i said above? If the answer is yes. You swear the person in.
Many of the former SCJ's were vetted for many days and they turned out different than what the ones who voted for them or even nominated them .
It is legal to lie now, i heard the other day. So just do it.

Tom Friedmans latest book "The World is Flat" should be read by every American that is concerned about the future survival of our country. I sincerely believe we could become a 3rd world nation unless we listen up, to the new
paradigm.

Swo: What does the book say that we haven 't said on one of the blogs?

tkearns, I imagine nothing. But just in case we missed something.......

And what "New Paradigm" would that be, swoflea. We do not have a shortage of oil, we have a shortage of freedom.

Doc, Would you consider reading Tom Friedmans latest book "The World is Flat?
Thats the New Paradigm.

Sure. I'll look it up, but the world isn't flat.

are you so sure?

Yes we have been around it havent we DR.

Yup.

Despite prices having come back down a bit, this link is appropriate, but strictly humorous.

http://www.atomfilms.com/contentPlay/shockwave.jsp?id=cant_afford_gas&preplay

(You may need to download a web browser 'plug in' to allow the short animated film play.)

It appears to me to have a political message. Maybe it was made by Michael Moore, the guy who hates corporations and does not own any stock so he said. I believe it was discovered lately that he owns a lot of stock in a fund he and his wife own. It is reported that some of that stock was Haliburton in the past. By the way that fund he is involved in is a tax break fund. Strange that what he says does not match with what he does.

Liberals seldom do, tk.

The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is spared from oildrilling due to the swing votes of moderate Republicans in the HOR yesterday. It's good to see representatives vote according to their constituencies concerns as opposed to corporate leanings for a change.

I do not think that oil drilling was the central theme yesterday. It was tied tosomething else and in my advanced stage of dementia i cant rememeber what and where i say it. If you are concerned about gas prices and dependency on foreign oil then you should be for oil drilling on us soil. You cant run a car oin caribou meat, maybe on their dung. Good lets get all the caribou dung in alaska and convert it to mentanol, i used to use that in my stock can to make it run faster. There problem solved next.

Mtnman, it is good to see you so happy. We shall see if you are as happy when you have to suck the oil out of the ground yourself.

Where is the fence?